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Windows 7: System Crashes When Copying to External HD


21 Sep 2009   #1
tmp

Windows 7 build 7600
 
 
System Crashes When Copying to External HD

Apologies if this specific issue has been covered in another thread. I posted in a different thread but the issue was not entirely similar.

I am now using build 7600 but had the same issue in beta and rc. Whenever I connect an external drive to copy or back-up large folders, my system freezes almost immediately. I have 2ghz AMD x64 with 4gb ram. In Vista, this was never a problem. I could copy many gigs of media-data with five or six instances running at the same time, reduce the "copying" windows and continue running multiple apps with no performance issue.

In all versions of 7 to this point, If even one other window is open-and even if I am doing nothing else, complete freeze. Mouse and keyboard do not respond and even if I can get CPR to work, it takes several min to get to task manager and even longer to end the process string if I can even do it at all. Most times, I end up doing a forced shut-down.

On the occasions I can cancel the process, my computer response is slow, sporadic, repeated cpu max-out and barely functions. The only way to get it back to normal is a full re-start. Drag and drop is the worst followed by copy and paste and then robocopy though all eventually cause freeze up. Every once in a great while, I can get a large folder to copy as long as it is the only thing I am doing, shut off all non-critical services and close my network connection. Small files are no problem though there is no magic size that seems to cause the problem. A copy function of as little as 40mb has caused the freeze-up.

I have seen on other sites that there have been unpublished updates leaked that change the hardware abstraction layer from 16385 to 16399 along with explorer, iexplorer, etc. build strings. Interestingly enough, the free app "blue screen review" reports these issues as BSOD caused by the hal.dll file. Though I dont actually get a blue screen, it does grind my system to a hault. I am wondering if this newer hal 16399 could solve this but since it hasnt been officially published by ms update or catalog, am reluctant to try it. Has anyone heard or tested these particular updates? Could this be the real problem? A bad hal driver?

This had been the only real problem I have had with 7. Other than that, it rocks. Some troubleshooting steps I have taken are:
1-shut down aero and as many process strings as possible to see if the performance improved. System still crashes though it does manage to copy some info first.
2-Disabled AV software prior to copying
3-Ran every test I could think of on all drives including SMART but just got a brand new WD passport-same issue. Even Win back-up(used it for the image file) fails the first time everytime though will eventually finish the backup after the 2nd try.
4-Can copy large media files one at a time but with over 400gb of movies and 100 of music, no time. Hopefully this is some kind of glitch??
5-Tested this process with the same drives on other machines and no issues though I have not had the opportunity to test on another pc with 7-not available to me at this point.
6-Checked for and installed all Windows 7 compatible drivers for the external drives, no change.

Is anyone else having this specific issue? Known bug? Possible fix? Thanks in advance for reading my small novel. Any help you can provide would be greatly appreciated. As I said, other than this particular problem, I am absolutely loving 7. But on the same machine, same hardware, cpu, etc under Vista, no issue.


My System SpecsSystem Spec
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21 Sep 2009   #2

Win7x64
 
 

You should run workshops on "How to describe your issue and make it sound like fun to troubleshoot". Have rep

Did you have a chance to test safe mode, as discussed?

What exactly are these "external drives"? USB sticks? HDDs connected via USB? HDDs connected via 1394 (firewire) or eSATA? Networked drives? If you haven't already done so, it would be very useful to verify whether the symptom is confined to one or more of those device classes, or whether it includes all of them - even a lowly $4.99 256MB USB stick.

Which process do you find yourself needing to end-task because it's consuming processor time? For example, if you're copying via Robocopy, does Robocopy become the offending process which you're aiming to kill if you want your responsiveness back?

Does this machine have a functioning serial (RS232) port, or 1394? If so, do you have another box close by which you could link to this one via a cable? (In a "last resort" situation, that type of setup can be used for some in-depth troubleshooting.)

I'm unclear on whether you've observed this issue first-thing-after-a-reinstall of the OS? In other words, was the symptom under Windows 7 always there, even before you apply any updates or install AV utilities, apps... ?

The HAL is literally one of the lowest-level and most important parts of the OS, so it's impractical at this juncture to speculate as to whether the HAL is somehow the culprit. It's definitely involved (in everything), so it could potentially be in need of an update, but running an incompatible HAL can be anything from frustrating to unworkable. For now, I'd suggest you don't experiment with HALs.

I'll try to make some more practical suggestions once I have a better grasp of the scope of the problem.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
21 Sep 2009   #3

XP_Pro, W7_7201, W7RC.vhd, SciLinux5.3, Fedora12, Fedora9_2x, OpenSolaris_09-06
 
 

FWIW,

There seems to be a "smokey grey" area in SF, concerning Windows 7 and USB externals.

Both HDDs and sticks. Nothing definite that you can aim at, just always USB.

Most say that everything works fine with XP or Vista, just NG with Windows 7...
My System SpecsSystem Spec
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21 Sep 2009   #4

Windows 7 Ultimate x64
 
 

I am having the same problem... I think mine are due to faulty nforce chipset driver... but my keyboard and mouse are still usable...

another thread
My System SpecsSystem Spec
22 Sep 2009   #5
tmp

Windows 7 build 7600
 
 
Response to H2SO4

I tried safe mode, no difference. I tried copying a 10GB folder and it went through the "analyze" stage fine. When it started copying, it went ok for about 30 secs with about 30/mbs transfer but quickly drops to 3-4mbps before freezing up. I perform cpr, end the copying process and even after it stops, I'm still at 90+cpu until shutdown.

I have an 8 GB flash that I use for taking documents home or using the office printer if I have my laptop at work. But haven't really tried the large file transfers on it. Will have to see what happens there.

The drives are external USB-three Seagate 320's, a Toshiba 320 and a new WD 500. No difference in copying to or from those drives. I have been using the WD solely for back-up and it fails at least 75% of the time, same processes as mentioned in the paragraph below.

The process string I try to end is usually taskmgr and occasionally windows desktop manager in hopes to stop the copying process. Even if it does stop, my system/cpu is at or near 100 percent until a complete and sometimes CPR restart if necessary.

But in Performance monitor, the processes taking up the majority of cpu are 1- System Interrupts with description-"Deferred Procedure Calls Interrupt Service" and 2- System Idle Process. There is no process ID for "System Iterrupts" but it uses about 90% of the cpu and I haven't been able to find a description for this process. At the same time, in task manager, is shows "system idle process" takes up about 70%(varying) of CPU so obviously the two must be related since there isn't a such thing as 150% of CPU??

I do have a 1394. No cable right now but I'll have to get one and give it a try. That is if I can find that has the necessary mini usb end to connect to the HDD. Does such a 1394 exist?

As far as connecting to another machine, what do you mean? Copy the needed files from the externals to the other machine and the using the 1394 to put them on my Windows 7 machine? Using the 1394 to copy to the other machine and then onto the external HDD? Not exactly sure what you mean as far as last resort trouble shooting?

This has always been a problem on 7 from clean installs all the way back to beta and pre AV software install.

As far as updating the HAL, how would I do this? I have a legal copy of Windows 7 through technet but the only updates I get are for Windows Defender. Haven't seen a single os update. Have you?? Nothing mentioned on "msupdate" or update catalog or whatever it's called.

I mentioned the leaked ones that change the hal # from 16385 to 16399. In system info, what is the string number of your HAL and where/how would I update mine? It's rumored those updates are coming out OCT 22nd at public release, perhaps even an entire SP??

Hope this helps you help me!! Cause right now, as mentioned, with this exception I love Windows 7 and would hate to go back to Vista over something like this but we all know how important being able to back-up info/data/media is. This issue has me feelin a little !!!

By the way fendytan, my chipset is also nvidia but I don't seem to have any issues whatsoever with it. It's the latest update and working fine. Why do you think it's causing your issue and is yours tha same as I describe? Freeze up when copying, failed back-ups, etc??
My System SpecsSystem Spec
23 Sep 2009   #6

Windows 7 Ultimate x64
 
 

From another thread... another user installed USB 2.0 expansion card to his PCI slot and he can copy large files from internal to external USB devices.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
23 Sep 2009   #7
tmp

Windows 7 build 7600
 
 

From reading the posts in the forum fendytan, maybe it is a chipset problem. I've got Geforce 7150/nforce 630 combo integrated graphics board for laptops and as far as I can tell, have the latest drivers. Maybe nvidia is the place to direct this issue?

Fendytan-what chipset are you using? You said yours was nvidia too right?
My System SpecsSystem Spec
23 Sep 2009   #8

Win7x64
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by tmp View Post
From reading the posts in the forum fendytan, maybe it is a chipset problem. I've got Geforce 7150/nforce 630 combo integrated graphics board for laptops and as far as I can tell, have the latest drivers. Maybe nvidia is the place to direct this issue?

Fendytan-what chipset are you using? You said yours was nvidia too right?
Based on the latest info, I think you'd do well to update the chipset drivers and flash the BIOS. Given some of the things you mentioned and the fact that it happens on a clean build of Windows 7, it looks likely that there's an incompatibility between the OS and your current chipset/disk controllers which cannot be rectified by tweaking settings.

Interrupts are a way for a hardware device to get the OS's attention in response to some sort of time-critical event. For example, when the user presses a key, the keyboard issues an interrupt which makes the OS stop whatever it was doing for a (very) short while, deal with the implications of the keystroke, and then resume its earlier activity. Same with disks. When the disk controller has copied another unit-worth of data into a designated location for the OS to move, it issues an interrupt to let the OS know that there's something it needs to do. A large file copy is therefore a series of a squillion interrupts as each small chunk is copied by the HDD/controller into a buffer, then moved elsewhere by the OS.

One of the interesting things about interrupts is that they happen in what's called an "arbitrary thread context", which is a fancy way of saying that the OS temporarily hijacks whatever process/thread is running at the time to deal with the interrupt. In other words, if the HDD/controller happens to interrupt while calc.exe is running, that small chunk of processor utilisation will be "charged" to the Calculator, even though it had nothing to do with the file copy. Windows 7 is a bit better in this regard because at least it tells you that the processor utilisation stems from a high rate of interrupts, but because of the "arbitrary" nature of the process context there's no process name associated with that activity in Task Manager, as you've noticed.

When a hardware device goes a bit bonkers, sometimes it starts generating interrupts at such a high rate that it effectively pesters the OS to the point where it cannot do much else. It may look like some hapless process is consuming that processor time, but end-tasking the process doesn't help because the interrupt utilisation simply gets attributed to the next one to come along. I think that's exactly what's happening in your case, except the HDD controller may not be ga-ga... it's just got a fundamental low-level incompatibility with Windows 7, for reasons that I can only guess at.

If the machine has firewire (1394) or eSATA ports, it would be very interesting to see what happens if you plug in external drives of those varieties, borrowed if necessary. My guess is that the problem probably wouldn't occur, given the somewhat different mix of hardware and drivers involved.

I am not aware of any HAL updates for RTM Windows 7 at this point, but I'm not well informed on that topic. At this stage, my suggestion would be to go for every single update you can find (from the manufacturer/developer, not from a 3rd-party), and to cross your fingers that will do the trick. The fact that it also happens in safe mode, with multiple completely "clean" OS installations, and with multiple drives, pretty much rules out something that could be fixed with a tick in a tickbox.

Lastly, you've tried all of the USB ports on the machine and they all do this, right?
My System SpecsSystem Spec
24 Sep 2009   #9
tmp

Windows 7 build 7600
 
 

H2SO4, Thanks for the explanation. It helped me understand what has been going on much better and I can see why a simple copy process is basically overloading the cpu yet the memory usage stays at about 30%. I have tried all the ports. I spoke with someone at Nvidia today. They suggested using a Windows 7 64 bit compatible driver but the one they suggested was for desktops. I have Geforce 7150m/630n and the desktop version is Geforce 7150m/630i. My integrated card was not listed as supported so I inquired as to whether or not it would be compatible and am waiting to hear back. There is no Windows 7 driver yet for my specific board/card. HP of course, suggests only using the drivers listed on their site and they number them differently so it's a bit tricky trying to figure out exactly which driver I have. I know they only post the ones they've tested, including the Bios update(released 3/09 for my particular system) but other drivers like the chipset are listed on HP as driver number 13.11 and the latest on nvidia is 15.37. How far behing can they be?? It seems nobody at HP is really concentrating on a 2007 machine, must be too far out of date I guess? Too bad for them I'm still under warranty though they refuse to offer any support on Win 7 until Oct 22 though my copy is legal. And of course technet and msdn are of no help at all because they want me to forward concerns to HP. The old pass the buck game. I need to do some research and try and see if there is a newer bios update though it's hard to track down outside the HP site. The chipset and bios are not listed in device manager so again, for a novice like me, hard to find exactly which version of the chipset driver I have though I do believe it is from the HP dl site. I will see if I can find a firewire device and give it a try. I will post again when I get more info from nvidia. Thanks for all your help and if you have any further ideas, it'd be great to hear them.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
24 Sep 2009   #10
tmp

Windows 7 build 7600
 
 

Well, I crossed my fingers and went ahead with the recommended driver from nvidia. It is meant for the desktop version but I installed it anyway and my back-up went smooth and copying a large file-about 20GB-just to check, never put my cpu above 15% on it's own. I guess for now, problem solved. If anyone has a Geforce/nforce integrated card, the chipset driver I used was #15.37 for windows 7 x64. Thanks for all the help guys!!
My System SpecsSystem Spec
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