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Windows 7: Microsoft still doesn't 'Get It'

23 Nov 2008   #1

windows xp / windows 7
 
 
Microsoft still doesn't 'Get It'

I have been using windows 7 for awhile. It is nice, but honestly nothing too spectacular. A new toolbar woopy it STILL doesn't work. I tried the 32 bit (which does work) and then the 64 bit. I ran into the SAME exact driver issues with windows 7 64 bit as vista. Microsoft wants us to think that it is the device manufacters that are to blame for this - and what they don't get is that it is THEM. What is an operating system? The code that is SUPPOSED to make the devices WORK, right? That is what the cutomer is buying. That is why we need an operating system to begin with. That is the product Microsoft produces. Microsoft needs to have a way to use 32 bit drivers on a 64 bit operating system. What micorsoft doesn't understand is that when people go to plug in a device that they know works into a computer that works and the device doesn't work it is the operating system that doesn't work - end of story. Would it be impossible to make a 32 bit device driver compatability mode. For the people -ALOT who hate vista windows 7 is not going to help any of their device problems. So if your device doesn't work in windows vista throw the device away, that is microsoft's stance. I just wish that Microsoft would TRY to understand their role in this and what an operating system does. They told us way back when directx came out that it was going to fix these problems and 20 years later all they have done is change the wording of the error message in the device manager. I don't care about new 'features' broke is broke. I would be happy with windows 98 (SE) if it could support todays hardware because esentially that is all you need an operating system to do but they still cant get the job done. I hate to say it but windows 7 is just more of the same. My opinion is, Microsoft needs to lay off the touch screen devices untill they can get a printer to work. Maybe they could amp up virtual pc so that it could do something with these non supported devices, or something. The only thing that vista and windows 7 seem to have that is better is than XP is the live file system for burning cd/dvd's - which is cool.


My System SpecsSystem Spec
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23 Nov 2008   #2

Vista Ult 64 bit Seven Ult RTM x64
 
 

Hello Jeremy.

Welcome to the forums.

If you are having trouble finding drivers for 64 bit why not use 32 bit. How old is the hardware you can't find drivers for? If the manufacturer isn't supporting that hardware anymore is that the fault of MS. I think not. The only thing I haven't found a 64 bit driver for is my Soundblaster card. They have decided not to write 64bit drivers for previous cards (mine is less than a year old). Does that tick me off. Yes. Do I blame MS. No. Just my humble opinion.

If you fill in your system specs, maybe someone here can help you find the drivers you need. Help, after all, is what the forums are all about.

Gary
My System SpecsSystem Spec
23 Nov 2008   #3

Windows 7 Ult x64(x2), HomePrem x32(x4), Server 08 (+VM), 08 R2 (VM) , SuSe 11.2 (VM), XP 32 (VM)
 
 

as for the compatibility mode that are talking about...
that is never gonna happen on a 64 bit system...
well not by ms anyway
reason being is that put so much protection in the kernel and the drivers HAVE to be signed (well not right now at least...lol)
and because they are just incompatible with 64 bit at the kernel and HAL
there IS NO 32bit HAL OR KERNEL....
they are all 64bit..
they have reworked the kernel and the way the drivers behave now
but thats no means of saying that its ms' fault
they made the all the resources available so that you can create one if you have to...
going from experience i have an old (circa 5 yr) all-in-one printer that according to hp the wont support anymore...
am mad just like gary yes i am
but i also this is a company that in like most... wants to make money..
but ms is not completely out of blame
but i guess they are doing right this time...
well at least the are not changing and reworking the whole kernel and structure....lol
most of the protection in 64-bit vista will stay in win 7...
the only thing i see that will happen is an entire optimization and streamlining of the os
they are gonna make it cleaner and easier for the developer to create apps easily
well that what i think that win 7 will be

and that is the whole reason why there will be win 7 32-bit and why i believe that will be last 32 bit OS....
because most hardware (said most) already offer 64 bit support...
there are not going to the same thing like winxp (x64) which i think was too premature...
sorry for the rambling and if it dosent make sense..lol
My System SpecsSystem Spec
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24 Nov 2008   #4
Microsoft MVP

Vista and now 7 in 32 and 64 bit.
 
 

I am not in love with 7 at this stage, but it is not yet in Beta. I would prefer to reserve my opinion on its relative merits over Vista until that time. Microsoft were obliged to introduce Directx many years ago, to cope with the ever increasing, and, in many cases, unneeded features being introduced in sound and graphics cards. They have strived, in a nowin situation, to keep up with the ongoing changes to those two functions.
If the OP seriously thinks that Microsoft are not doing their bit to help the hardware people, perhaps he should read this. Written around Vista time but with 7 in mind. With only a few exceptions , (ATI have a 7 "beta") the hardware manufacturers are still hanging back. I cannot see how Microsoft can be blamed for the fact that, after a couple of years, many programs, and a few hardware items, still have no 64 bit capability.
Windows Logo Program: Overview
My System SpecsSystem Spec
24 Nov 2008   #5

 

Hi Jeramy,

You kinda rambled on about a fair few things, I will try to break them apart and answer them the best I can...Basically you blaming Microsoft for things outside their control...If you understand programming then you might understand how complex an Operating System is to create and maintain or update and 90% of the things you blamed Microsoft about are caused by 3rd party problems and their lack of testing and knoledge about the new framework`s being used for many things in Windows..

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
I have been using windows 7 for awhile. It is nice, but honestly nothing too spectacular. A new toolbar woopy it STILL doesn't work. I tried the 32 bit (which does work) and then the 64 bit. I ran into the SAME exact driver issues with windows 7 64 bit as vista.
Did you know Windows 7 is currently pre-beta? This means things are broken, unfinished, untested, unsupported, not functional......Before you start assuming something about how Windows 7 will be maybe you should wait for the RTM version when its tested, finished, supported and functional
Quote:
Microsoft wants us to think that it is the device manufacturers that are to blame for this - and what they don't get is that it is THEM. What is an operating system? The code that is SUPPOSED to make the devices WORK, right? That is what the customer is buying. That is why we need an operating system to begin with. That is the product Microsoft produces. Microsoft needs to have a way to use 32 bit drivers on a 64 bit operating system. What Microsoft doesn't understand is that when people go to plug in a device that they know works into a computer that works and the device doesn't work it is the operating system that doesn't work - end of story.
uh.....

well no..hardware support is one of 18 different functions the Windows OS is designed and built to support, The responsibility of driver support is the device manufacturers...I built a com interface for managing my security system, should it be Microsoft`s responsibility to support my device let alone the devices of thousands of separate company's across the world and then have Microsoft make drivers for their devices? Thats what your implying they should do...

I originally built a driver for XP however when Vista was released I needed to create a new driver for the New OS..I did have problems in the beginning because I didnt understand the new framework but I eventually learned the new procedure and it runs great, plus at least with Vista I dont need to worry about my driver crashing the entire OS because the new driver framework has capability to prevent user-mode drivers from crashing the entire system which is a huge bonus for me and hundreds of other device manufacturers, Their are many other improvements but unless your writing/testing drivers then its just a feature available to the end-user if a developer chooses to support these new features using a new driver...

Windows is a framework to support basically everything, The many framework`s do need updating every few years to support new advances in technology (like USB3 or SLI for example) so they really do need to change the framework and that requires a new driver for the new framework(how many Windows95 drivers work on XP or how many 32bit drovers work on 64bit?)...


Quote:
Would it be impossible to make a 32 bit device driver compatibility mode. For the people -ALOT who hate vista windows 7 is not going to help any of their device problems. So if your device doesn't work in windows vista throw the device away, that is microsoft's stance. I just wish that Microsoft would TRY to understand their role in this and what an operating system does.
Microsoft has been building Operating Systems for 25 years, I doubt you can claim the same and they do understand perfectl...I doubt you can build any of their Operating Systems, so without knowing the reasoning behind every change I bet if they could use a compatibility mode they would because being able to supprt the old framework and new framework would be a huge bonus for them and the ISV...
Quote:


They told us way back when directx came out that it was going to fix these problems and 20 years later all they have done is change the wording of the error message in the device manager. I don't care about new 'features' broke is broke. I would be happy with windows 98 (SE) if it could support todays hardware because esentially that is all you need an operating system to do but they still cant get the job done. I hate to say it but windows 7 is just more of the same. My opinion is, Microsoft needs to lay off the touch screen devices untill they can get a printer to work. Maybe they could amp up virtual pc so that it could do something with these non supported devices, or something. The only thing that vista and windows 7 seem to have that is better is than XP is the live file system for burning cd/dvd's - which is cool.
Windows 98 is the same operating system as XP, Vista or Windows 7..Its built by the same company with the similar functions but each new release just supports many new frameworks for the thousands of applications and their functions...Sometimes a part of these frameworks will be broken or changed and broeak older drivers/software on newer Operating Systems...Im currently upgrading my software to support Windows 7 as a few things have chanaged since Vista, I understand why things have changed but I do have problems implementing these changes in my software because Microsoft could never assume the things I do with Windows...

Independent software/hardware vendor need to update their driver/software or framework themselves, this is their responsibility not Microsoft's...If the last OS Microsoft ever made was Windows98 then I highly doubt anyone will still be using it today for developing SLI or multi-threaded applications(and hundreds of other things) because the framework simply doesnt exists for these things or many others back then...

DirectX is a framework for graphics instructions, they dont make the instruction sets thats the job of graphics hardware manufacturers just like everything with Windows, Microsoft just make a framework to support things for programmers, ISVs or home users and like I mentioned these frameworks need updating to support new features, functionality or devices and sometimes things do break with something as complex as an Operating System (Windows sourecode is as many pages as the oxford dictionary library with about 40billion lines of text) also Error codes Do Not Ever Get Changed! Thats a huge waste of time for them and for tech depeartments to change an error code, its a stupid idea.

Microsoft tries to support everything, everyone and while its an almost impossible task its not perfect as it could be sometimes... they do, do the best they can but things take time hence the reason for new releases , patches and bugfixes (better than any other OS) Its not prefect but this world never is

IMHO, They do a better job supporting more than Linux or OSX could even possibly dream of supporting too

Steven
My System SpecsSystem Spec
24 Nov 2008   #6
Microsoft MVP

64-bit Windows 8.1 Enterprise
 
 

Hello Jeremy, and welcome to Windows 7 Forums.

I can understand your frustration, but you must remember that this is a pre-beta version of Windows 7. Plus, the manufacturers have not even began to make drivers for it yet to the public. Luckily people have been having pretty good luck with using Vista drivers.

It is impossible to have 32-bit drivers run in a 64-bit OS, or the other way around. If you have a device that does not have a 64-bit driver, then you need to use a 32-bit OS or get a new device that does have a driver for it. It is completely up to the device manufacturer to create drivers to make their device product a driver that will work with the different Windows OS's. Luckily 64-bit is becomming a lot more popular, and most manufacturers are creating 64-bit drivers for their newer devices. Unfortunately, most of them just do not feel it is worth the time and expense to create them for old devices.

Hopefully by the time Windows 7 is released, most of these issues will be resolved.

In the mean time, please send in your feedback to Microsoft to hopefully help correct the issues you run across.

Shawn
My System SpecsSystem Spec
24 Nov 2008   #7

Windows 7 Ultimate x64
 
 

Steven and Shawn, well done! Couldn't have said it better.

Pre-beta is the only word everyone should keep in mind.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
24 Nov 2008   #8

Windows 7 (7000) public beta
 
 

I wish they would give a date for the release of the public beta!

Some of us have monthly download quotas with high MB costs for over runs.. So, do you save a bit this month for Win 7, or next month?

It's suppose to be released the 2nd week of December, 2008 - that COULD be Monday the 15th - my quota starts on 16th. Should I save a bit for the 15th?

My Google alerts for Windows 7 have decreased from 7-9 per day to 1. Interest is waning ....
My System SpecsSystem Spec
24 Nov 2008   #9

Windows 7 Ultimate Vista Ultimate x64
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by graham.lv View Post
I wish they would give a date for the release of the public beta!

Some of us have monthly download quotas with high MB costs for over runs.. So, do you save a bit this month for Win 7, or next month?

It's suppose to be released the 2nd week of December, 2008 - that COULD be Monday the 15th - my quota starts on 16th. Should I save a bit for the 15th?

My Google alerts for Windows 7 have decreased from 7-9 per day to 1. Interest is waning ....
My Quota starts on the 13th so just in time but I'm with Bigpond on the $99 (So called) Unlimited Plan but it is really 25Gb @ 20000kbs and then they slow it down to 64kbs for anything over that which I hate but at least you can still go online without having to pay extra.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
25 Nov 2008   #10

windows xp / windows 7
 
 

After further review and condisider I stand by my post. We all have devices that don't work. That means THEY DONT WORK, because Microsoft has lost sight of what an operating system is supposed to do -
An operating system (commonly abbreviated OS and O/S) is the infrastructure software component of a computer system; it is responsible for the management and coordination of activities and the sharing of the limited resources of the computer. The operating system acts as a host for applications that are run on the machine. As a host, one of the purposes of an operating system is to handle the details of the operation of the hardware.
If it doesn't work it does not work. How blind are you people that you don't understand that Vista is broke and windows 7 does nothing to address it's failure. My point is that microsoft has done nothing to fix the problems that vista has. And btw I am not talking about old hardware I am talking about devices that are at walmart and best buy today. One specific example a FT8D91 PS2/XBOX/GC TO PC-USB CONVERTER in stores now with a made for windows logo, not made just for 32 bit windows. The package next to the windows flag says windows vista, xp, ect. What is the logo for? Maybe microsft shouldn't give the logo to things that won't work in 64 bit Vista. Maybe they ment 32 bit windows vista, maybe microsoft should call vista 64 bit something other than vista if things made for vista won't work on it. My entire point was that all the people that have the driver issues that they hate Vista for are not going to have any improvements in windows 7 in the area of drivers because Microsoft fails to accept resonsibility and basically says we should all by new hardware. Do you all work for microsoft or do you still not understand that if a device that has a windows Vista logo on it doesn't work in vista 64 bit than there is a problem either with the windows logo program or vista. Maybe they should specify what vista in the logo. Is the os supposed to support the hardware or is the hardware supposed to support the os - I just think you all got it backwards.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
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 Microsoft still doesn't 'Get It'




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