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Windows 7: Windows Explorer in Windows 7: Why the confusing behavior?

24 May 2012   #21
FliGi7

XP / Win7 x64 Pro
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by lehnerus2000 View Post
Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by FliGi7 View Post
Can you explain?
I could, but since TCO politely asked that Windows Explorer design/operation not be debated, I won't.
He asked that we not debate the merits of Windows 7 design decisions. You explaining your reasoning behind the statements of how Windows 7 Libraries don't work in various situations/settings has nothing to do with design decisions, it's just backing up your claims. Without background or reasoning behind them it could mislead people into thinking there are/aren't issues that may or may not exist. We have enough statements on here regarding Windows 7 Libraries and Search without any background as to reasoning or information behind them (which most are obviously just opinions due to lack of understanding). This is part of the reason for the perpetuation of this "Windows 7's Libraries/Search suck(s)" mentality.


My System SpecsSystem Spec
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24 May 2012   #22
lehnerus2000

W7 Ultimate SP1, LM18 MATE, W10IP VM, W10 Home, #All 64 bit
 
 
On my PC

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by FliGi7 View Post
What programs are you referring to and how do they not integrate correctly?
"A Lot" was a bad choice of words.
I only have about 80 installed programs, but it happens often enough to annoy me.
There are probably 1000s of programs that do work correctly.

On my PC:
WMP goes "berserk", if you add folders to the "Libraries".
No matter what options you set, it always attempts to load every file in the "Libraries", into its own database.
In my case: 80 GB of music + 69000 pictures + 900 GB of videos.

Winamp randomly selects the "Documents Library" or "Music Library".

Programs that are/were seemingly "optimised" for XP don't know how to deal with "Libraries".
I have several other programs (I rarely use, hence I can't name them now) which will open to the default "Library" location, but won't navigate into sub-folders.

WMC handles "Libraries" correctly (i.e. it lets you choose what to add and it respects your choices).
MS Office lets you choose default directories (thus bypassing any issues).
Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by FliGi7 View Post
So, then you can search them.
I can't (maybe that works on your PC, it doesn't on mine).

On my PC:
Turn Indexing Off.
Open "My Documents" and add a text file.
1
Open "My Documents" in the "Documents Library".
Search for the text file.
It won't be found.
2
Open "My Documents" (the real location).
Search for the text file.
It will be found.
Therefore opening the "Documents Library" (by default) isn't as useful as opening "My Documents" itself.

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by FliGi7 View Post
I add content to them just like I add content to any other folder on my system. I'm not sure how adding content to a Library specifically is more painful. Can you explain?
On my PC:
Each folder must be added to the "Library" individually (i.e. I can't open a folder and select a group of sub-folders and just add them to a "Library").
To add 20 folders to a Library, takes 20 operations.

Using the "old method", if I select a group of folders and drag them to "My Document", I can easily get Windows to create links to all of them, in one operation.

I'm not going to spend weeks, individually clicking on 11000 folders, just so that I can add them to the appropriate "Library".

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by FliGi7 View Post
What does an Enterprise Network setting have to do with using Libraries?
It's the IT departments job to organise the folder structure on the users PCs (i.e. make network resources available).

Users may also be required to store certain files in specific folders (on their PCs).
These folders could be gathered together in a "Project X Library".

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by FliGi7 View Post
What does the Favorites folder have to do with Libraries? They both serve particular purposes, each being different. I'm not sure how using Favorites would serve to better organize files into Pictures, Movies, and Documents. Can you explain?
Put your Pictures, Movies, and Documents folders into the Favourites?

"Libraries" don't help:
  • The disorganised user.
  • The organised user (who has an existing file structure with lots of folders and files).
What benefit(s) do they offer over the "old method"?
Disorganised users are still going to just accept the default directory that is offered to them (or save everything on the Desktop).

"Libraries" could help:
  • New users who want to be organised and who don't have large amounts of folders and files to re-organise.
  • The semi-organised user (who wants to become organised) who has a small number of folders and files that need to be re-organised.
The best advice anyone can offer about customising a PC OS is:
Backup your system & data, BEFORE you start tinkering.

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by FliGi7 View Post
You explaining your reasoning behind the statements of how Windows 7 Libraries don't work in various situations/settings has nothing to do with design decisions, it's just backing up your claims. Without background or reasoning behind them it could mislead people into thinking there are/aren't issues that may or may not exist. We have enough statements on here regarding Windows 7 Libraries and Search without any background as to reasoning or information behind them (which most are obviously just opinions due to lack of understanding). This is part of the reason for the perpetuation of this "Windows 7's Libraries/Search suck(s)" mentality.
You gave TCO the Linux fanboy's standard response, RTFM (they never answer the OP's original questions).

Why should he have to use his PC the way that you and MS demand?

I did not demand that he remove the "Libraries" or "Command Bar".

If TCO wants to remove the "Libraries" or "Command Bar" that is his choice.
He asked if there was a way to disable/remove the Command Bar and I provided links.

I pointed out that he wasn't the only person, who doesn't like "Libraries" (do an Internet search).
I then listed my annoyances and opinions on "Libraries".
I haven't deleted the "Libraries" from my OS,but I don't find them particularly useful.

I should have added ():
Backup your system & data, BEFORE you start tinkering.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
25 May 2012   #23
FliGi7

XP / Win7 x64 Pro
 
 

It sounds like much of your issues with Libraries are opinion-based or due to particular settings on your system. You can easily add many folders to Libraries by highlighting them all, right click, add to Library. It's the same number of steps as highlighting them all and dragging them somewhere else. The issues with WMP are that WMP just sucks in general for managing music, regardless of libraries, and obviously Winamp is not specifically tailored for Win 7 as it has been around forever (and is one of my favorite music players, I might add). Your documents should be searchable from either the Library or the folder itself, so that's some setting on your system that has to be fixed.

I find your statement about libraries very interesting regarding both the organized and the disorganized user. I can certainly see it the way you describe in that it might not inherently help either type of user. I think the main point in starting on any new system is trying out the features it offers and seeing if they work for you. I know that personally I hated the Libraries feature (I'm an organized user) but I forced myself to start using them. Now, I really like what they have to offer and don't see them as a detriment in any way. I suppose it's just all about how you look at it. You can see new features as changes that you think shouldn't have been made (if it ain't broke, don't fix it), or you can see them as opportunities to provide something you didn't realize you needed/wanted/liked in the first place (not withstanding the features that are added that just honestly provide nothing to the users - e.g. much of the features in Windows 8).

Back to TCO, I actually didn't give a RTFM response. My response was that everything is there for a reason and if you actually take the time to learn and understand them, then you might end up liking them as many others have done. This, of course, involves RTFM as does learning about anything that you're trying to change and don't obviously understand, but I don't quite see how that's a Linux fanboy's standard response.

Thanks for explaining the reasoning behind your thoughts on Libraries.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
.

25 May 2012   #24
Slartybart

x64 (6.3.9600) Win8.1 Pro & soon dual boot x64 (6.1.7601) Win7_SP1 HomePrem
 
 

TC0,

Libraries are just like Media Player Libraries - confusing, imo. That being said, I think they are a powerful organization tool and I use them to present data from all over my machine in one spot. They don't really exist - they're an organization vehicle, an index to some other location.

Documents(lib), Documents(user folder), My Documents: The library Documents, is probably poorly named. It includes your Documents folder as the default location. You can add any folder to the libraries. The My Documents is a reference (Junction) to Documents for backward compatibility. You can determine how best to represent documents on your machine.

Favorites: I added my root user folder to favorites (Navigate to Users\TC, Right click Favorites on the navigation pane, Add current location to favorites)

I think that once you grasp the concepts (as I had to do) you'll start using the new features. But that's your decision. Microsoft gives users a million ways to do the same thing, which might add to the confusion.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
25 May 2012   #25
Slartybart

x64 (6.3.9600) Win8.1 Pro & soon dual boot x64 (6.1.7601) Win7_SP1 HomePrem
 
 

Turn it off
Organize ==> Layout ==> Clear Library Pane checkmark
Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by TC0 View Post
....
7. Whenever I navigate to a folder through a library, Explorer uses some of the space in the folder pane to tell me the name of the library. I have no interest in this feature. Is there any way to turn it off and use all of the space for the file list?
-TC
Things are different, look around. Organize ==> Layout controls more now.

I couldn't find a way to change the toolbar, not even to change what's on it (no customize toolbar where I expected it-right click the toolbar). But that's the thing - it's not where I expected it.... doesn't mean it can't be done. I'm learning to be less critical of Win7, because I'm learning where MS stashed stuff, how and why they changed stuff.

Make your machine the way you like it. That's what we all do.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
25 May 2012   #26
Slartybart

x64 (6.3.9600) Win8.1 Pro & soon dual boot x64 (6.1.7601) Win7_SP1 HomePrem
 
 

TC0, Found a remove toolbar tutorial here
My System SpecsSystem Spec
26 May 2012   #27
lehnerus2000

W7 Ultimate SP1, LM18 MATE, W10IP VM, W10 Home, #All 64 bit
 
 
Thanks for the clarifications FliGi7

Speaking of clarifications, when I say Indexing, I mean Windows Search service.

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by FliGi7 View Post
It sounds like much of your issues with Libraries are opinion-based or due to particular settings on your system. You can easily add many folders to Libraries by highlighting them all, right click, add to Library. It's the same number of steps as highlighting them all and dragging them somewhere else.
I am opinionated (and grumpy).

Thanks for that information about how "Libraries" work on your PC.
I just checked (using my VM) and Windows Search service must be running to add multiple folders (in one operation).

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by FliGi7 View Post
The issues with WMP are that WMP just sucks in general for managing music, regardless of libraries, ...
lol.
We are in total agreement on this point, WMP 12 is awful.

I didn't mean to imply that WMP problems were the fault of "Libraries".

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by FliGi7 View Post
... and obviously Winamp is not specifically tailored for Win 7 as it has been around forever (and is one of my favorite music players, I might add).
Winamp is my favourite music player too.

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by FliGi7 View Post
Your documents should be searchable from either the Library or the folder itself, so that's some setting on your system that has to be fixed.
I thought I mentioned that Windows Search service must be running to search in "Libraries" (confirmed on my VM).

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by FliGi7 View Post
I find your statement about libraries very interesting regarding both the organized and the disorganized user. I can certainly see it the way you describe in that it might not inherently help either type of user.
I think they can be useful to certain users (as I outlined).
A lot of complaints about "Libraries" start with, "I already have my data organised ...".

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by FliGi7 View Post
I think the main point in starting on any new system is trying out the features it offers and seeing if they work for you.
IMO, the problem is that MS can't/won't explain how to use Windows.
They add and remove things for no identifiable reason.
When they try to explain, their reasoning is usually self-serving (i.e. distorted to suit their predetermined position).

That's why sites like this one exist.

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by FliGi7 View Post
You can see new features as changes that you think shouldn't have been made (if it ain't broke, don't fix it), or you can see them as opportunities to provide something you didn't realize you needed/wanted/liked in the first place (not withstanding the features that are added that just honestly provide nothing to the users - e.g. much of the features in Windows 8).
We are in total agreement here.
I am only opposed to change that doesn't improve on the previous version of something.

I've basically used W7 as my main OS since build 7048.
I only start XP (and W8) for updates these days.

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by FliGi7 View Post
Back to TCO, I actually didn't give a RTFM response. My response was that everything is there for a reason and if you actually take the time to learn and understand them, then you might end up liking them as many others have done. This, of course, involves RTFM as does learning about anything that you're trying to change and don't obviously understand, but I don't quite see how that's a Linux fanboy's standard response.
Fair enough.
Whenever I see someone saying, "Don't do that. Read the manual", that is the first thing that springs to mind.

When I look for answers to Linux questions, I often see that response.
Also the OP is generally ignored (i.e. their question is never answered).

IMO, Brink handles these type of questions/requests excellently.
He will usually say that you shouldn't do it, but if you really want to, here is the info.

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by FliGi7 View Post
Thanks for explaining the reasoning behind your thoughts on Libraries.
No problems.

I've said it before, but the best advice anyone can offer about customising/repairing a PC OS is:
Backup your system & data, BEFORE you start tinkering.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
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 Windows Explorer in Windows 7: Why the confusing behavior?




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