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Windows 7: Defragmenter programs can delete System Restore Points

27 May 2014   #11
Slartybart

x64 (6.3.9600) Win8.1 Pro & soon dual boot x64 (6.1.7601) Win7_SP1 HomePrem
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by lehnerus2000 View Post
I use Defraggler and it seems to delete System Restore points.
Try Defraggler Settings menu, Advance options tab:

Stop VSS when defragmenting NTFS volume

Use custom fragmentation settings [define] button
exclude restore point file



My System SpecsSystem Spec
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27 May 2014   #12
lehnerus2000

W7 Ultimate SP1, LM18 MATE, W10IP VM, W10 Home, #All 64 bit
 
 
Thanks Slartybart

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Slartybart View Post
Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by lehnerus2000 View Post
I use Defraggler and it seems to delete System Restore points.
Try Defraggler Settings menu, Advance options tab:

Stop VSS when defragmenting NTFS volume

Use custom fragmentation settings [define] button
exclude restore point file
Thanks.
I'll try that "exclude restore point file" option (I already have the other options set).

I'm not sure what that actually does though, as Defraggeler won't defrag System Restore points anyway (on my PC).

I have also experienced the other problem that was mentioned, System Restore points being created during defragging (i.e. less free space available after defragging, than before defragging).
My System SpecsSystem Spec
27 May 2014   #13
A Guy

Microsoft Community Contributor Award Recipient

Windows 7 Home Premium x64 SP1
 
 

Quote:
After the shadow copies are lost, events that are similar to the following may be logged in the System log:

Event Type: Warning
Event Source: VolSnap
Event Category: None
Event ID: 24 User: N/A
Computer: production
Description: There was insufficient disk space on volume C: to grow the shadow copy storage for shadow copies of C:. As a result of this failure all shadow copies of volume C: are at risk of being deleted.
For more information, see Help and Support Center at Events and Errors Message Center: Basic Search.
Data: 0000: 00000000 00580003 00000000 80060018 0010: 00000002 c000007f 0000003f 00000000 0020: 00000000 00000000 You may have several event ID 33 logged both before and after the event ID 24 is logged.

Event Type: Information
Event Source: VolSnap
Event Category: None
Event ID: 33 User: N/A
Computer: production
Description: The oldest shadow copy of volume C: was deleted to keep disk space usage for shadow copies of volume C: below the user defined limit.
For more information, see Help and Support Center at Events and Errors Message Center: Basic Search.
Data: 0000: 00000000 00580002 00000000 40060021 0010: 00000001 00000000 00000040 00000000 0020: 00000000 00000000
Shadow copies may be lost when you defragment a volume

I'd think narrowing the events down to a timestamp when the SR points were removed (when defragmenter was run), and the type mentioned above would be needed. Finding such events may just confirm what we already know. SR points were deleted.

It occured to me that perhaps movement of large files during the defrag process may be a commonality of those who lose SR points. But I think some 3rd party defrag programs have default settings that exclude large files? Auslogic free at least does not

Defragmenter programs can delete System Restore Points-large.jpg

A Guy


My System SpecsSystem Spec
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27 May 2014   #14
Pete4

win7hp64
 
 

This is great: I really wish somebody explained to me reason for MS using this stupid shadow copy to begin with. I lost all Win 7 Backup copies from my 2 USB backup drives, the moment I connected them to my Win XP computer (We have 4 computers running Win XP, Win 7 and even that thing called Win8, but only 2 main back up drives, so we share) and so many years later still didn't find solution for that, except keep XP and 7 separate, or never use MS backup, which is PITA either way. Now you're telling me I can loose all my restore points during simple disc defragmenting? I hope at least MS program does not have that issue?
My System SpecsSystem Spec
27 May 2014   #15
andrew129260

Windows 10 Pro
 
 

Pete4,

Please read the thread.

This is about 3rd party defrag programs. This is why you should use the one that comes with windows.

As for xp, yes that will happen as older OS will not understand the newer shadow copies and will remove them.

I personally would never dual boot a machine. It it so much hassle. Why not just use vmware player or something virtual?
My System SpecsSystem Spec
28 May 2014   #16
A Guy

Microsoft Community Contributor Award Recipient

Windows 7 Home Premium x64 SP1
 
 

Actually, I have seen posts about the built in Windows 7 defragmenter deleting SR points as well, EX:

Quote:
My computer came with a number of tasks already scheduled. Up until now, I've left them alone to wreak havoc as they please, but I recently realized that after the scheduled defrag each week, all my restore points are gone.

I have read about this problem with third-party defrag programs, but this is Windows 7 very own defrag utility.

I have read about system restore points being deleted at reboot, but that's not an issue. I can reboot to my heart's content, and the restore points remain safe and steady.

This is not a critical issue, but it annoys the heck out of me. Windows' very own defrag utility should not be doing this. I would be exceedingly grateful if someone were to offer a clue or a suggestion.

Thanks.
Windows 7 defrag is deleting restore points - Microsoft Community

As to the general problem of Defrag programs deleting SR points, I have yet to find any specific reason it happens to some, but not others. Low disk space, or too small an area dedicated to SR points could cause the loss of SR points, but it should only remove older points until there is again enough space. Most people report ALL of their SR points being deleted. The idea that the VSS tracking the differential changes until overwhelmed and deleting the entire SR volume seem possible.

The more technical discussions I see don't address why the known cause only affects some, and not all. Workarounds include:

Formating your disk with cluster size greater then 16K

This seems a bad idea for many reasons, and a blunt weapon for such an isolated issue

Put the shadow copy storage on another volume, even if the volume is located on the same hard disk.

Perhaps an alternative for those with repeatable SR point loss

Changing the MinDiffAreaFileSize

Registry Keys and Values for Backup and Restore (Windows)

Which has been seen to work on Server applications, but is no guarantee

But all these would be possible workarounds for a repeatable problem, and do not tell us what causes the issue. What is unique in the configuration of affected systems? Also, people who have this problem often find it to be completely random, or a one time occurrence. While SR is by no means a reliable backup option, the times I have tried to use it it has failed more often then not, it is a feature of Windows, and we are discussing the phenomena.

I find it telling that often people are adamant that defragging does not, cannot delete SR points. Even discussions on these programs forums, the developers always point at some other cause. Obviously they are aware of the issue, as some programs include "VSS aware" settings now.

While losing SR points may not be the most horrible Windows failure, defragging a HDD with SR points is somewhat of Russian roulette situation. Especially as defragging is almost universally suggested. In fact, Windows includes a task to do so by default (or at least did).

Perhaps with the advancemnts in SSD technology, along with dropping prices, the issue will just go away eventually. But with all the spinner HDDs out there, and the cost difference, this won't happen any time soon.

I'll stop for now

A Guy
My System SpecsSystem Spec
28 May 2014   #17
gregrocker

 

It is a serious enough problem that it seems half of those I try to help repair their PC have no Restore Points now, including those whose install I did myself and ensured plenty (5-10%) of restore point space in System Protection - Change Disk Space Usage . It also seems to be recent.

Do others still have MS defragger setting an scheduled weekly defrag as was the case when Win7 was released? At some point it appears they disabled this, and I wonder exactly why.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
28 May 2014   #18
andrew129260

Windows 10 Pro
 
 

Thanks a guy for the info.

I have no problems with restore points being available, though I have not ever needed to use one yet.

I also use the built in windows 7 disk defrag.

It does run on a schedule. But most of the time I run it manually as well.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
28 May 2014   #19
DavidE

Multi-Boot W7_Pro_x64 W8.1_Pro_x64 W10_Pro_x64
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by gregrocker View Post
It is a serious enough problem that it seems half of those I try to help repair their PC have no Restore Points now, including those whose install I did myself and ensured plenty (5-10%) of restore point space in System Protection - Change Disk Space Usage . It also seems to be recent.

Do others still have MS defragger setting an scheduled weekly defrag as was the case when Win7 was released? At some point it appears they disabled this, and I wonder exactly why.
I just checked a Win 7 OS that was installed 4+ years ago and the auto defrag is still scheduled.
So nothing ever turned it off ...

Checked a Win 8 OS that was installed about a week ago and it has a weekly scheduled defrag, set by default (not me).
My System SpecsSystem Spec
28 May 2014   #20
DavidE

Multi-Boot W7_Pro_x64 W8.1_Pro_x64 W10_Pro_x64
 
 

I moved the Win 7 OS to a SSD a while ago and Windows turned off defrag for the SSD.
It kept the scheduled defrag for the spinner partitions.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
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 Defragmenter programs can delete System Restore Points




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