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Windows 7: Copied files a few times on same external hard disk: copies corruptedd

22 Jul 2015   #21
Doki

Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit SP1
 
 

Many thanks, CK_WD.

Quote:
Just reinstall the WD DLG software and try it again.
I use it portably. I tried a new copy but the same problem and using a new version (at another place) did not help either.

What does using a new version at another place mean?
For example, I unzip again the downloaded WD DLG version (new version) and instead of copying it to the folder (e.g. P:\DLG) the not working version is, I copy it to another folder (e.g. (e.g. P:\DLG-2).
Re-installing / over installing the installed DLG does make it work also. But, actually I will not need it anymore, I assume.
Thank you for the link.

Quote:
If only I had such another PC
For the purpose of the testing I believe one can be found, you can borrow from a friend, go to their place, in a University, etc. etc. you just would need to make an agreement. It's up to you.
Yes, that's right. It appears more testing is not necessary anymore. My other WD drives (with my other Notebook) appears to have the same issue, same behavior.

Quote:
Yes, HDtune shows the drive incorrectly:
This was a screenshot you hadn't provided before. This is inconclusive as this is one program/place the drive is shown incorrectly but it is a sign of a problem.
A problem caused by the wrong initializing?

Quote:
last night until now I copied 1845 (zip, rar...) files (about 240 GB) on the same drive and about 70 GB (edit: about 35 GB and 238 files more now without any corruption displayed), 550 files (rar, zip...) to the drive (from the internal drive) with different programs always using the old cable.


This would exclude a problem with the system you are using.
Yes, but unfortunately it doesn't anymore, suddenly the same problem occurs after copying some GB more.

Quote:
So the problem would occur on each machine then since the drive is not initialized with GPT. Is that right?


Yes, that is correct, as the problem should occur on every system if the partition table type is at fault. That is an if, thus testing is required.
Sorry, my understanding of that is that the second sentence would contradict the first and other utterances, how should I understand it:
"Yes, that is correct, as the problem should occur on every system if the partition table type is at fault."
and
"That is an if, thus testing is required."

And the problem should occur even on the newest Win, Win 10 if the drive is not initialized with GPT?

Quote:
It took me some time, but I believe that the answer is in the initializing after all.

The Advanced Format Technology, that is embedded into the WD drive that is in your external device, allows for drives to be created with larger capacities and the drive exposes its native 4K sector size instead of emulating 512-byte sectors. This means extending the MBR limit to 17.6 TB, thus going around the rule of GPT initializing.

However, this creates other compatibility issues, such as programs that rely on 512-byte sector sizes may not work correctly, like partitioning programs, data base programs, so may be even some archiving programs. (sound familiar? )It could lead to partial data loss, or in your case - data corruption. That is why it didn't happen constantly but rather randomly!
So obviously, unfortunately - if I understand it right - that means this is not appropriate at all or are there exceptions:
Quote:
Quote: Originally Posted by CKWD Hello Doki!......
If a drive is over 2.2 TB to be shown properly it would need to be Initialized in GPT,.... CK_WD


Need not necessarily. As on date almost all the >2TB drives including Western Digital drives use Advanced Formatting where the 8 default 512bytes sectors are combined ( by the drive translation circuitry inside the enclosure) and present a 4096 byte sector size. Consequently upto 16TB (2TBx8) drives can be initialised as an MBR drive.
Quote:
Looks like this is an anomaly with the 4kn and I would advise as one final conclusion - back up your data from the drive onto another physical drive, and convert your external WD drive in GPT, the partition table a HDD above 2.2TB should have, and let me know if the problem occurs.
There does not seem to be another way finally:

When a file is copied / moved correctly (compared by check sum or content = correct check sum or correct content) can it happen though that the file becomes corrupt just being on the drive? So I copy some files, check either their check sums or their contents (of source files and their copies) after and it is shown all contents or check sums are correct, no corrupted file. Can it happen then, say after one year that one or more of these copies have become corrupted though without having done anything with them (because of the wrong initializing of the drive)? Or can it happen that, when you just open a file, e.g. play a movie / music file, open a jpg file, extract an archive, etc. the file gets corrupted? Or has the file to be saved to possibly get corrupted? So is it that as long as a file is not saved again (e.g. after editing it), there is not any risk (at least not a higher one than usual) that it gets corrupt? In other words, is it that if a file is copied / moved correctly on / to / from that drive it will keep staying in its state / uncorrupted? So the wrong initializing only effects processes like copying / moving? And may be other processes, but not the state of a file just being on the drive? So summing, there is not any risk (not more than usual) for the files as long as they just stay on that drive without being transferred and saved (after being edited or so)? Is that correct? Could just renaming a file (the filename) cause corruption to it? So, if yes, I just could copy all of the files to another external drive, check them by content or check sum, copy again the files shown to be corrupt and again until each file is shown as correct. Is that correct?

If I always had checked (before noticing the corruption) the files after copying / moving could I then have avoid the corrupted files having now, respectively copy them again until they would have been identical with the source files? Or is a check by check sum and content not reliable (or needful because the file might get corrupted anyway even just because it is on that drive) because of the wrong initializing? So if checking by check sum or content would be useful in cases like this one I always would do it though making the entire process of copying extremely longer.

Thank you very much for your great help.


My System SpecsSystem Spec
.
23 Jul 2015   #22
CKWD

Windows 7 Home Premium x64
 
 

Hello again Doki!

This case has turned out to be more challenging that I initially anticipated, with you now saying you have the same problem with other WD drives and on top of that – on another system!

I had to go back through the thread to read everything all over again, make notes (Stichpunkten ) and try to configure possible solutions. The way we have been communicating in these posts is very long and a bit confusing, so I will try to be brief and stick to the point.

You say you have:

- 7-8 4TB WD drives + other larger than 2.2TB drives – Are these external as the WD Elements 4TB?
- You have two more external drives – 2.5” 640GB and Fujitsu Siemens 1TB drive, USB 2.0
- You have two Medion Notebooks
- Your external WD Elements is 4TB, formatted in NTFS, initialized in MBR, shown correctly everywhere, except in HDTune, where there is no info at all, and is basically working
- You have checked the health of the WD Elements and the 640GB externals using multiple programs, including WD DLG (Extended test) and have shown the SMART results of the WD Elements, all indicates good status; the drives are completely fine

The problems so far:

- WD DLG issue
- First few times you would connect the WD Elements via USB it would not show
- Copy-pasting archived files only (zip, rar..) on the WD Elements – copies end up corrupted
- You receive no error messages except from WinRAR, that some are corrupted, when you are trying to unzip the copied files on the WD Elements
- You find out that the copies made from archived files from the WD Elements to the same drive are corrupted by comparing their checksums, but have you actually tried opening them not only unzipping them?
- You encountered problems when transferring archived files from the second Notebook to the external 640GB drive
- You encountered problems with keeping the USB connection of the 1TB Fujitsu external drive
- Now you only say that the other WD drives are having the same behavior

Questions and proposals:

- How did you find the other WD drives have the same behavior, used again only archived files, copy-pasted on those drives themselves, which Notebook?
- What were the results with copy-pasting from the Notebooks to the WD Elements? Find a way to test from a different PC!
- Stretching the USB cable proves nothing, change the USB cables!
- Did you check the USB drivers on both Notebooks? Reinstall them!
- Back up your WD Elements! Reinitialize in GPT! Try again. The reason I explained in post #20 and Jumanji explained the technicalities in post #8
- WD DLG – usually the best way is to uninstall everything, delete all .exe files, redownload, reinstall as being the first time


Conclusions:

- If there has been a mistake here and the WD Elements is the only drive at fault, back it up, reinitialize in GPT, test again; if it continues having the same problem, either your archives and thus archiving software are corrupted, or the enclosure of the drive, thus you'll have to RMA it.
- There is a possibility of the Notebook(s) being damaged, consult with a professional to check it/them and determine if the USB connections/ports/drivers are all good. A faulty in various ways USB connection is enough to cause these problems.
- If the other drives are really behaving the same way, again, the fault is probably in the USB connections, archiving software/files or the Notebooks. Reason for naming the software – you are referring only to archives which are having corruptions, no other types of files.
- It is usually not possible for a file to corrupt out of nothing, there is always a reason – bad sector, initial corruption, faulty software, bad connection during transfer etc. Renaming shouldn't affect, except if you are trying to rename the file extensions.


CK_WD

EDIT: Also, I forgot, how big files at once are you copy-pasting? Too much at once could too end up in corruption.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
23 Jul 2015   #23
Doki

Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit SP1
 
 

Hello CK_WD again,

Quote:
I had to go back through the thread to read everything all over again, make notes (Stichpunkten ) and try to configure possible solutions.
Quite a lot of work, many thanks for your great work and really big efforts and making some Stichpunkte, that sounds very familiar, indeed.

Quote:
- Back up your WD Elements! Reinitialize in GPT! Try again. The reason I explained in post #20 and Jumanji explained the technicalities in post #8
Alright, yes, I will do it, unfortunately I am not able to correctly understand some things, sorry. Somehow what jumanji says (meaning the GPT is not necessary, if I understand it correctly) and what you say (if I understand it right, independently of what Win version is running, Win 7, 8, 10, etc., when a drive bigger than 2.2 TB is not initialized in GPT the drive is not shown correctly) there unfortunately sounds contradictorily to me. I am very sorry for causing some inconvenience with my bad understanding. So, what exactly does that mean, how should I understand it best:
Quote:
Quote: Originally Posted by CKWD View Post
Hello Doki!......
If a drive is over 2.2 TB to be shown properly it would need to be Initialized in GPT,.... CK_WD
Need not necessarily. As on date almost all the >2TB drives including Western Digital drives use Advanced Formatting where the 8 default 512bytes sectors are combined ( by the drive translation circuitry inside the enclosure) and present a 4096 byte sector size. Consequently upto 16TB (2TBx8) drives can be initialised as an MBR drive.
Quote:
Looks like this is an anomaly with the 4kn and I would advise as one final conclusion - back up your data from the drive onto another physical drive, and convert your external WD drive in GPT, the partition table a HDD above 2.2TB should have, and let me know if the problem occurs.
What do you think about this, it would be great if it were possible for you to expand on it quite a little bit:

When a file is copied / moved correctly (compared by check sum or content = correct check sum or correct content) can it happen though that the file becomes corrupt just being on the drive? So I copy some files, check either their check sums or their contents (of source files and their copies) after and it is shown all contents or check sums are correct, no corrupted file. Can it happen then, say after one year that one or more of these copies have become corrupted though without having done anything with them (because of the wrong initializing of the drive)? Or can it happen that, when you just open a file, e.g. play a movie / music file, open a jpg file, extract an archive, etc. the file gets corrupted? Or has the file to be saved to possibly get corrupted? So is it that as long as a file is not saved again (e.g. after editing it), there is not any risk (at least not a higher one than usual) that it gets corrupt? In other words, is it that if a file is copied / moved correctly on / to / from that drive it will keep staying in its state / uncorrupted? So the wrong initializing only effects processes like copying / moving? And may be other processes, but not the state of a file just being on the drive? So summing, there is not any risk (not more than usual) for the files as long as they just stay on that drive without being transferred and saved (after being edited or so)? Is that correct? Could just renaming a file (the filename) cause corruption to it? So, if yes, I just could copy all of the files to another external drive, check them by content or check sum, copy again the files shown to be corrupt and again until each file is shown as correct. Is that correct?

If I always had checked (before noticing the corruption) the files after copying / moving could I then have avoid the corrupted files having now, respectively copy them again until they would have been identical with the source files? Or is a check by check sum and content not reliable (or needful because the file might get corrupted anyway even just because it is on that drive) because of the wrong initializing? So if checking by check sum or content would be useful in cases like this one I always would do it though making the entire process of copying extremely longer.

The issue should occur even on the newest Win, Win 10 if the drive is not initialized with GPT?

I very much appreciate your kind help. Thanks a lot.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
.

24 Jul 2015   #24
CKWD

Windows 7 Home Premium x64
 
 

What you have quoted about MBR and GPT is so, but you have probably missed my post #20, where I basically agree with what Jumanji says.

“ The Advanced Format Technology, that is embedded into the WD drive that is in your external device, allows for drives to be created with larger capacities and the drive exposes its native 4K sector size instead of emulating 512-byte sectors. This means extending the MBR limit to 17.6 TB, thus going around the rule of GPT initializing.

However, this creates other compatibility issues, such as programs that rely on 512-byte sector sizes may not work correctly, like partitioning programs, data base programs, so may be even some archiving programs. (sound familiar?) It could lead to partial data loss, or in your case - data corruption. That is why it didn't happen constantly but rather randomly! ”

If this would help you understand better, take a look at this WD Community thread where there is a variation of the event explained, post #5, including an explanation on the enclosures:
Support Answers

At the time Jumanji explained basically the same thing about the MBR extension, I was waiting for answers from you on other troubleshooting pointers, and quickly disregarded, or to be exact, put that option on hold.

What you need to know from the whole situation and explanation is that your 4TB external WD drive was initialized in MBR successfully, because it's external, in an enclosure and you don't boot from it. It has been done in the way and for the reasons explained above, but I would believe that you should back up, reinitialize in GPT and try again copy-pasting files, so that the issue would clear out. That's all you need to understand at this point.

I already commented on what you wrote, and I said “It is usually not possible for a file to corrupt out of nothing, there is always a reason – bad sector, initial corruption, faulty software, bad connection during transfer etc. Renaming shouldn't affect, except if you are trying to rename the file extensions.” I could also add, even just by “being on the drive”, if it goes corrupt even without any actions undertaken upon it, it will be with reason, again, like bad sectors, bad connection etc. (mentioned in the beginning of this paragraph). If you extract files and they get corrupted, again, it's with a reason, not out of the blue; could happen because the software you are using is faulty, or you are extracting to a bad partition and so on. Nothing corrupts by itself without a reason.

The initializing by itself is not “wrong” it is just modified and not very much seen. I, personally, don't get many cases with such an aspect, this is the first one. So that initializing (in MBR) does not affect anything specifically. But if there is an anomaly, something would indicate it. See my second paragraph from the Italic-pasted post from above.

Now, I have a really strong request to make! Go through my post #22, through “questions and proposals” and “Conclusions”, do all the tests, answer all the questions, and let your next post here on this thread be with those results and answers! I would like very much to help you, but we need to stick to the point, make the tests, in order to troubleshoot further and correctly, and to achieve any conclusion at all! Also, please answer the question in the EDIT section as well.

You need to help me help you, and in order to help you, I need to understand the details at a maximum!

Cheers!

CK_WD
My System SpecsSystem Spec
27 Jul 2015   #25
Doki

Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit SP1
 
 

Hello CK_WD,

Many thanks again for your great help.

And sorry for my generally bad understanding.

Quote:
What you have quoted about MBR and GPT is so, but you have probably missed my post #20, where I basically agree with what Jumanji says.
No, no, I didn't miss it, I read it very attentively, respectively I tried to, but I was not sure about the meanings. Sorry for asking again. Alright, so this means, although not being initialized with GPT but with MBR a drive bigger than 2.2 TB can be shown correctly, is that right (like it is on my systems)?

Quote:
If this would help you understand better, take a look at this WD Community thread where there is a variation of the event explained, post #5, including an explanation on the enclosures:
Support Answers
Thank you for the link. But, no, it does not help me understand better as I really do not have a clue about anything. Thanks anyway.

Quote:
At the time Jumanji explained basically the same thing about the MBR extension, I was waiting for answers from you on other troubleshooting pointers, and quickly disregarded, or to be exact, put that option on hold.
Very sorry for hesitating.

Quote:
What you need to know from the whole situation and explanation is that your 4TB external WD drive was initialized in MBR successfully, because it's external, in an enclosure and you don't boot from it.
Yes, but I haven't understood not even that, sorry. So, why could it initialize in MBR although it is not working in MBR obviously.

Quote:
but I would believe that you should back up, reinitialize in GPT and try again copy-pasting files, so that the issue would clear out. That's all you need to understand at this point.
Alright, so, before I do a backup - may be better said - a try to safe as many files as possible - it would be good, if I knew how to do it best under this "unusual" circumstances:

Quote:
I already commented on what you wrote, and I said “It is usually not possible for a file to corrupt out of nothing, there is always a reason – bad sector, initial corruption, faulty software, bad connection during transfer etc. Renaming shouldn't affect, except if you are trying to rename the file extensions.” I could also add, even just by “being on the drive”, if it goes corrupt even without any actions undertaken upon it, it will be with reason, again, like bad sectors, bad connection etc. (mentioned in the beginning of this paragraph). If you extract files and they get corrupted, again, it's with a reason, not out of the blue; could happen because the software you are using is faulty, or you are extracting to a bad partition and so on. Nothing corrupts by itself without a reason.
Sorry for misunderstanding this completely. My reasoning only was referred to the problem I have at the moment, the corrupt files, respectively the wrong initializing obviously causing the corrupt files. Not the copying / check of files in general. Sorry again, I assumed we were talking about how to proceed in this special case. So when trying to save as many files as possible to another drive, what happens when I do this (independently of the usual risk of transferring / storing files, so only the special risk in this case - wrong initializing, copying causes many corrupt files on / to external drives):

When a file is copied / moved correctly (compared by check sum or content = correct check sum or correct content) can it happen though that the file becomes corrupt just being on the drive? So I copy some files, check either their check sums or their contents (of source files and their copies) after and it is shown all contents or check sums are correct, no corrupted file (or can the file on the soucrce disk can get corrupt while reading it / writing its copy, so that would mean a check by check sum / content would not be reliable). Can it happen then, say after one year that one or more of these copies have become corrupted though without having done anything with them (because of the wrong initializing of the drive)? Or can it happen that, when you just open a file, e.g. play a movie / music file, open a jpg file, extract an archive, etc. the file gets corrupted? Or has the file to be saved to possibly get corrupted? So is it that as long as a file is not saved again (e.g. after editing it), there is not any risk (at least not a higher one than usual) that it gets corrupt? In other words, is it that if a file is copied / moved correctly on / to / from that drive it will keep staying in its state / uncorrupted? So the wrong initializing only effects processes like copying / moving? And may be other processes, but not the state of a file just being on the drive? So summing, there is not any risk (not more than usual) for the files as long as they just stay on that drive without being transferred and saved (after being edited or so)? Is that correct? Could just renaming a file (the filename) cause corruption to it? So, if yes, I just could copy all of the files to another external drive, check them by content or check sum, copy again the files shown to be corrupt and again until each file is shown as correct. Is that correct?

In other words: when a file is copied on / to the disk and the check sums are matching / the contents are shown to be identical, does that mean the file is copied correctly (or because of the wrong initializing the check sums, checks by content are not reliable?)? And it will stay correctly on that drive?

If I always had checked (before noticing the corruption) the files after copying / moving could I then have avoid the corrupted files having now, respectively copy them again until they would have been identical with the source files? Or is a check by check sum and content not reliable (or needful because the file might get corrupted anyway even just because it is on that drive) because of the wrong initializing? So if checking by check sum or content would be useful in cases like this one I always would do it though making the entire process of copying extremely longer.

The issue should occur even on the newest Win, Win 10 if the drive is not initialized with GPT? Have I understood that right?

Quote:
The initializing by itself is not “wrong” it is just modified and not very much seen. I, personally, don't get many cases with such an aspect, this is the first one. So that initializing (in MBR) does not affect anything specifically. But if there is an anomaly, something would indicate it. See my second paragraph from the Italic-pasted post from above.
Actually I do not understand that at all. And sorry, I cannot find that explanation in that Italic post.

Quote:
Now, I have a really strong request to make! Go through my post #22, through “questions and proposals” and “Conclusions”, do all the tests, answer all the questions, and let your next post here on this thread be with those results and answers! I would like very much to help you, but we need to stick to the point, make the tests, in order to troubleshoot further and correctly, and to achieve any conclusion at all! Also, please answer the question in the EDIT section as well.

You need to help me help you, and in order to help you, I need to understand the details at a maximum!
Yes, of course, I understand, you need to help me help you in order to help me. And yes again, I understand, understanding details at a max., I would like so, too, to be able to make the tests, give the answers the best I can.

Can you recommend a (synchronizing) program that might be suitable best for these purposes (to get the files in this special case form the drives correctly to another drive)?

I very much appreciate your kind help. Thanks a lot.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
28 Jul 2015   #26
CKWD

Windows 7 Home Premium x64
 
 

At this point I feel that we should very much try to fix your issue rather than go into more detailed technical explanations that are more complicated and probably harder to explain. Sometimes they are very challenging to describe, so I apologize.

Please do the following at this point and come back with results:

- move your data from the WD Elements onto another physical drive; you can use the WD Smartware tool to create the back ups, or a simple copy-paste, or another software of your choosing
- from your laptop go into Disk Management and delete the partitions of the drive in question
- covert the Initialization to GPT by right-clicking on the left side – the Disk number of the drive
- create the partition again
- format in NTFS
- move files back on the drive, test, report what happens

Or, another idea is to call WD Support to discuss the problem live, they may be able to help more than I can through the writing in the forum. :/

WD Support

Good luck!

CK_WD
My System SpecsSystem Spec
28 Jul 2015   #27
Doki

Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit SP1
 
 

Alright, yes, that sounds very plausible, thank you very much, CK_WD.

I am very pleased about your grandiose and kind help.

Many thanks again.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
28 Jul 2015   #28
CKWD

Windows 7 Home Premium x64
 
 

You're welcome.

Just make sure you do the described above and post the results here afterwards. Then, if the issue is not corrected, turn to our WD Support to be guided live on the spot.

CK_WD
My System SpecsSystem Spec
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