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Windows 7: Reflections


06 Mar 2009   #1

vista x64/ win 7 x64
 
 
Reflections

I've been running dualboot vista and windows 7 now for quite a while.

At first, with the 7000 build there was a striking difference in os footprint.
The GUI is question of taste, for me i don't like it, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

So i focused on overall usability, does windows 7 add sufficient improvements to warrant the expense and effort to switch?

Now with the latest vista sp2 RC versus build 7048 the difference in footprint got a lot less obvious.

Overall processor load is now about equal, core temp also. Memory footprint about equal.

Windows 7 takes 3 hours to copy 5gb from one disk to another, vista 10 minutes.

More then a few applications have 'oddities' under windows 7. IE8 makes me cry, it crashes even when opening hotmail.

The added bonus of the addition of 'libraries' escapes me, what does this do? Aggravate RSI most likely.

Wireless improvements, well i don't were wireless users live who have succesful wireless setups but they most live on a deserted island. For the rest of us getting a interference free wireless setup in a busy community is next to impossible. I had a wireless network, till my neighbour bought a wireless hifi installation. Throughput halved when he switched his tv on.

Touchscreen? Nice useless gadget outside of commercial applications. I prefer cleaning my keyboard once a day then cleaning my screen every 5 seconds.

So all in all, i fail to see a real factual non emotional imperative to switch from a stable vista setup to a new gui build on top of vista aka Windows 7. Must say the hype was perfectly orchestrated. They really learned their lesson from the epic failure with vista.

So, as soon as i buy a new box which will come with windows 7 i will use it for sure. Till then i'll keep replacing worn out parts in my 8 year old box and spend the $$$ on a graphic card or something


My System SpecsSystem Spec
.

06 Mar 2009   #2

Windows 7 Build 7077 x64
 
 

While I do understand your arguments, I must say you are posting throught oo narrow of a scope. Perhaps for you personally it may not be the most substantial improvement, but for a large majority of folks, I believe it shall be. Claiming the operating system to be a marketing scheme and whatnot is ignoring the effect windows 7 will have on the large majority of users. You have to take into account you are a power user.

Let me address your individual points.

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by petrossa View Post
I've been running dualboot vista and windows 7 now for quite a while.

At first, with the 7000 build there was a striking difference in os footprint.
The GUI is question of taste, for me i don't like it, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Well, if GUI is an issue, you can revert to something almost exactly like the vista one, but more functional. Surely not a problem for a power user :P. But true, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

However, the new GUI isn't about prettyness. Its about usability. Making easy to adapt improvements to the workflow for the common user. I think the vast majority of users on this forum will agree Windows 7 greatly increases window management. And not only the powerusers here, but family members and friends who have tried my install of windows 7 were immediately able to adapt, and I had more than a couple of compliments about the operating systems' mechanics. I also feel 7 makes it much easier to customize performance aspects of you PC.

Quote:
So i focused on overall usability, does windows 7 add sufficient improvements to warrant the expense and effort to switch?

Now with the latest vista sp2 RC versus build 7048 the difference in footprint got a lot less obvious.

Overall processor load is now about equal, core temp also. Memory footprint about equal.
If vista is so much quicker by its second service pack, then imagine what windows 7 will be like by the time it reaches service pack 2! :P

More importantly though, I had a look at your specs. Compared to what most people have, you have a friggin powerful PC XD. I mean, I'm stuck here with my lappytop with 2GB of ram, 120GB HD, and 1.9 GHz athlon processor... There's no way you could feel the impact Seven has on an operating system

Simply put, the common user does not care about memory usage/management, CPU usage, etc. They only care about how quick there computer is running, how pleasurable that experience is. Or not even how pleasurable, but how painless it may be. Thats what windows 7 it is. The user is in control. Apps cant even pin themselves to the task bar.

I personally think its amazing that In my entire time using windows 7, I've had to open task manager less than 10 times. Mind you, I had an extremely optimized vista system, while I've taken much less care to optimize my 7 install. Why should I? Everything's running smoothly already.

Quote:
Windows 7 takes 3 hours to copy 5gb from one disk to another, vista 10 minutes.

More then a few applications have 'oddities' under windows 7. IE8 makes me cry, it crashes even when opening hotmail.
Those are relatively trivial issues likely to be fixed by the release of the OS. My hard disk functions much more quickly under 7. I don't have any trouble with IE7.

Quote:
The added bonus of the addition of 'libraries' escapes me, what does this do? Aggravate RSI most likely.
Many on this forum find them useful. I personally like being able to organize and access all the pictures scatted across my hard disk into one virtual folder. If anything, libraries don't take away anything, just give you more options.

Quote:
Wireless improvements, well i don't were wireless users live who have succesful wireless setups but they most live on a deserted island. For the rest of us getting a interference free wireless setup in a busy community is next to impossible. I had a wireless network, till my neighbour bought a wireless hifi installation. Throughput halved when he switched his tv on.
Well, thats a shame for you then really, not to be rude. More powerful routers will yield better results. I seriously doubt most users have any trouble with wireless whatsoever. What seven improves is connecting and managing your networks. Homegroups is a friggin savior lolz.

Quote:
Touchscreen? Nice useless gadget outside of commercial applications. I prefer cleaning my keyboard once a day then cleaning my screen every 5 seconds.
Useless? Only if you personally have no use for it. God I wan a touch screen PC so much, so I can take it to class on my college campus, and easily take notes while paying attention to what the professor says. In vista, touch screen was "just there". In seven, its more like it "just works".

Quote:
So all in all, i fail to see a real factual non emotional imperative to switch from a stable vista setup to a new gui build on top of vista aka Windows 7. Must say the hype was perfectly orchestrated. They really learned their lesson from the epic failure with vista.
Gah, should I even start on the list of reasons why? =/

Honestly, even though power users are the most eager to adapt new operating systems, they are also often the ones who need it the least. There is almost always a method to imitate a function or aspect of another operating system for the power user, so if you don't feel like upgrading, dont. There's nothing wrong with that whatsoever. But to regard 7 as being hyped in an ochestrated, and implying it as not being an important upgrade overall, is quite lax in reasoning I believe.

Some incentives:

-Recovery without a DVD. Its awesome.
-Its quicker, and will only get quicker. Again, imagine what 7 SP2 will be like, if vista SP2 is just approaching a BETA for windows 7.
-Window management is the most enjoyable experience I've had managing open applications, and I've used linux windows mac BSD you name it.
-Desktop Slideshow, just because its awesome.

Too much stuff to list. But if you don't see the point personally, then no problem. Just remember that you have a powerful system that will feel the performance improvements much less than a weaker system(On my PC, windows 7 build 7048>>>Vista RC2 still lol).
My System SpecsSystem Spec
06 Mar 2009   #3

Vista Ult 64 bit Seven Ult RTM x64
 
 

I like the libraries. I have pics in lots of different folders on my drives and by adding those folders to the libraries, I can get to them all from one place. Shawn has done some nice tutorials on Libraries

I just copied a 3.1 GB file from one drive to the other and it was done in about 40 seconds.

Don't have a wireless setup (soon I hope) so can't comment.

I have the same concern with touchscreen. How long between cleanings.

Gary
My System SpecsSystem Spec
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06 Mar 2009   #4

vista x64/ win 7 x64
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by napilopez View Post


Well, if GUI is an issue, you can revert to something almost exactly like the vista one

Honestly, even though power users are the most eager to adapt new operating systems, they are also often the ones who need it the least. There is almost always a method to imitate a function or aspect of another operating system for the power user, so if you don't feel like upgrading, dont. There's nothing wrong with that whatsoever. But to regard 7 as being hyped in an ochestrated, and implying it as not being an important upgrade overall, is quite lax in reasoning I believe.
Valid points sure. I use Stardocks's GUI improvements since OS/2 so i've actually never worked with the default GUI of Vista except when installing the thing.

You might be right i have narrow vision in looking at it from a 'power' user.
It's just that i can't find a machine like yours anywhere in the shops. In the supermarket just around the corner, next to the gear for bicycles and garden equipment the absolute base model to be had is a AMD64 with 4 gb, 180 gb, a decent graphics card, onboard sound,ethernet, dvd burner and a 17" flatscreen.
anything less just isn't for sale.

On those machines both will run perfectly smoothly.

As win 7 is supposed to be the 'future' of computing measuring its performance on the equivalent of Edisons dictaphone seems to me, well weird.

My hopes for Windows 7 where vastly higher, a platform that could benefit truely from the immense horsepower for sale nowadays. Not just another leaf from the same book.

Where is true multitasking? Concurrent CPM did a better job of it in the 1980's. I ran a serious financial app in FBASIC with 16 terminals linked to a 8086 running CCPM.

29 years later and IE8 crashes if you open 2 instances to quickly after each other.

Where is the AI build in the OS that will understand that when i type: 'delete all' it will delete the file called all, and not ALL. Where is voicerecognition actually recognises your voice, which determines by the way you type who you are and presets your GUI to your likings?
(long list of other true inovations skipped)
My System SpecsSystem Spec
06 Mar 2009   #5

Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit
 
 

Zero crashes with IE8 here, and I open about 10 tabs right away when I get home and settle down to relax for a few minutes while checking mail etc..

Although I do appreciate the delete all comment.

I'm waiting for bluetooth in the skull, so it'll type whatever sentence I'm thinking of, and I can still do tasks whilst in the bathroom contemplating life, since there, our best thoughts and ideas often occur and due to lack of paper get forgotten.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
06 Mar 2009   #6

Microsoft Community Contributor Award Recipient

Vista x64 / 7 X64
 
 

Hi,

7 will ship with new machines from it's release and therefore by default will sell in large numbers.

Many business users did not switch to Vista due to cost, extra hardware requirements, etc. As one business leader said - how is that going to increase my sales of widgets?

However, they are likely to switch to 7 - despite the requirements and cost being the same as they would have been to switch Vista.
Simply because their existing system is now so old and they know M$ is withdrawing support . Again 7 will sell by default.

Home users are different. My guess is a large proportion perhaps 70-80% will see no practical advantage and therefore no need to pay again for an o/s.

M$ only goal is to increase their profit and market share, of course .

I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to mop up that section of the market by offering special "upgrade" deals as an enticement to holders of Vista and XP licenses.

SIW2
My System SpecsSystem Spec
06 Mar 2009   #7

Windows 7 Build 7077 x64
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by petrossa View Post
Valid points sure. I use Stardocks's GUI improvements since OS/2 so i've actually never worked with the default GUI of Vista except when installing the thing.
Hehe... same here <3 Stardock. Can't wait to see what they'll bring out for 7 personally.

Quote:
You might be right i have narrow vision in looking at it from a 'power' user.
It's just that i can't find a machine like yours anywhere in the shops. In the supermarket just around the corner, next to the gear for bicycles and garden equipment the absolute base model to be had is a AMD64 with 4 gb, 180 gb, a decent graphics card, onboard sound,ethernet, dvd burner and a 17" flatscreen.
anything less just isn't for sale.

On those machines it will run perfectly smoothly
Well, my specs aren't too different. Really, just less ram, and probably a slightly slower processor.

Don't forget all the bloatware that tends to come installed by default. I do believe 7 has significantly better memory management, which will aid in managing bloatware.

Quote:
As win 7 is supposed to be the 'future' of computing measuring its performance on the equivalent of Edisons dictaphone seems to me, well weird.

My hopes for Windows 7 where vastly higher, a platform that could benefit truely from the immense horsepower for sale nowadays. Not just another leaf from the same book.
Hmm, well I do understand that it's not revolutionary, but I think perhaps your disillusionment is a result of you expectations, no offense intended. I don't think 7 was ever intended to be revolutionary, nor do I believe Microsoft has marketed is as such. It is, what vista should have been. It's a very evolutionary. I don't think windows 7 was meant to yield to massive raw processing improvements. Its all about the end user experience, and in this sense, I actually think it has changed more than any system since Windows 95.

Quote:
Where is true multitasking? Concurrent CPM did a better job of it in the 1980's. I ran a serious financial app in FBASIC with 16 terminals linked to a 8086 running CCPM.

29 years later and IE8 crashes if you open 2 instances to quickly after each other.
I don't quite get this part of your argument. Do you seriously have trouble multitasking on your system?Again, its not to chide you, but I mean I'm currently working on a large video project, and I don't have trouble multitasking. Thats actually what made me switch to 7. Do remember that Seven is indeed running on the Vista "core", just like XP was based off of 2000.
Just a while ago, I was actively using Adobe Fireworks for image editing(I prefer its workflow to photoshop), GIMP, Sony Vegas for video editing, while having about 10 tabs open in chrome, AIM and MSN opening and having music playing in WMP. My computer wasn't even running noticeably slower.

Quote:
Where is the AI build in the OS that will understand that when i type: 'delete all' it will delete the file called all, and not ALL. Where is voicerecognition actually recognises your voice, which determines by the way you type who you are and presets your GUI to your likings?
(long list of other true inovations skipped)
Well, perhaps I'm just playing advocate, but I mean... those are some pretty hefty improvements... and since you were speaking about performance improvements... well, those things aren't gonna help lolz. Also, I use voice recognition on my installation quite happily lol.

I think its really an issue of expectations... I didn't expect such innovations, I don't think most people did. They said windows 7 was running on the vista core, so it would really just be a super optimized version that "just works", and for most folk, its just that.

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by SIW2 View Post
Home users are different. My guess is a large proportion perhaps 70-80% will see no practical advantage and therefore no need to pay again for an o/s.

M$ only goal is to increase their profit and market share, of course .

I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to mop up that section of the market by offering special "upgrade" deals as an enticement to holders of Vista and XP licenses.

SIW2
I kinda agree, but I see way more people upgrading to 7 than those who did to vista.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
07 Mar 2009   #8

Windows 7 7600 x64 (16385) Ultimate,Windows Vista x64 Ultimate
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by petrossa View Post
Windows 7 takes 3 hours to copy 5gb from one disk to another, vista 10 minutes.
dont mean to be picky but i just copied 45gb of movies from my main hdd (seagate 1tb 40ns 32mb sata2) to my backup drive (samsung 250gb 16mb sata2) and it took under 10 minutes, and thats by the clock as well as the est time remaining.

I am one person that uses vista ult 32 (laptop) and windows 7 (main rig in specs) on a daily basis and i prefer 7, but i still like vista as its stable on my old laptop (havnt tried 7 on it yet) but i have not had any issues on 7 that i have not figured out with the help of this forum, google or just on my lownsome. i am very impressed with the minor improvements on 7 opposed to vista, but as one member has stated b4, without vista we wouldnt have 7. its just a shame that vista just didnt have what 7 has now achieved, with the 2 combined it would be 1 whoopie os to take over the world!
My System SpecsSystem Spec
07 Mar 2009   #9

vista x64/ win 7 x64
 
 

i call em as i see them. In fact i rebooted to vista to redo the copy, because with every action i took the copy time lenghtened.

And i copied from one 500 gb sata wdc to another 500 sata wdc.

There's more weirdnesses, i normally run opera as browser, but Hotmail cleverely doesn't adhere to the standards so i'm obliged to start IE8 for that. Frequently it happens im staring at a nonresponsive IE which i can only quit using taskmanager. As i don't use IE normally it's completely virgin setup.

For that reason i installed Firefox, just to be able to read my mail.

I'm not ranting against Windows 7, if i didn't have vista already i'd sure be happy to install it. But i think i'll wait till Windows 7 sp2 to change os's.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
07 Mar 2009   #10

vista x64/ win 7 x64
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by napilopez View Post
Hehe... same here <3 Stardock. Can't wait to see what they'll bring out for 7 personally.
snip
I don't quite get this part of your argument. Do you seriously have trouble multitasking on your system?
With multitasking i had in mind that with the introduction of multicore processors the scheduler had been rewritten to take that into account. True multitasking on a multicore would mean that it is impossible for an application to hog the whole os. If i write for example:

main(void)
{
while(0)
int i=0;
}

try to get a keystroke recognised by the os
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