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Windows 7: SSD's working with yours

23 Jan 2015   #1
ICIT2LOL

Desk1 7 Home Prem / Desk2 10 Pro / Main lap Asus ROG 10 Pro 2 laptop Toshiba 7 Pro Asus P2520 7 & 10
 
 
SSD's working with yours

Now I was in another thread and discussing SSD machinations with someone whose thread was beginning to look like a mad cat's breakfast so thought I might try to perhaps discuss in here.

Now this came about because in the other thread a program called HD Tune came up and I ran it only to find some strange spikes in the readings so off I went to find the reasons behind those spikes because the machine was at idle while the test was running. Not that I am worried about my SSD because it runs really good -Samsung 256GB 850 Pro.

It came back that spikes can be due to heat and the effect on the materials used in transistor technology. Now I have tinkered in electronics over the years from vacuum tubes to the IC age but have only ever used up to the trusty 555 timer chip. I am no great mind and I won't bore anyone with the basic things about the elements used in these devices but like anything else the elements used in transistors does get affected by heat in one way or another ie to the point of the said element melting. This also of course has an effect on the conductivity both thermally and electrically on those materials used in transistors.

We have discussed in this forum more times than I can poke a stick at the effects of heat on especially CPU's and GPU's both which of course use transistors of one form or another based on silicon and thought maybe some would like to add to what I have put here because I am not going to pretend I am any great expert on the issue.

Now to get back to the SSD I did find some interesting reading although some of it is over my head but fascinating stuff all the same as in these two links.
https://nanoheat.stanford.edu/sites/...ations/A90.pdf

Non-volatile memory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Personally I am one for knowing how something should work properly first then go on to track down why there is an anomaly.

So anyone who is interested your input would be appreciated because I think we take an awful lot for granted when wesue our machines and it is for me more interesting to find out how things work before delving into fixing them - either physically or electronically.

One thing that did come up when I was reading about volatile and non volatile memory for example is that while we can change the BIOS chip to a new version (therefore the internal components are "active") yet wreck by not doing it right. The strange to me is that one changes the "memory" in SSD's to suit our needs and even though it is basically the same technology - as far as I know - as the BIOS chip is not that workable. After all it is supposed to be ROM and yet can be changed it doesn't make a lot of sense to me at least.
So is this a manufacturers choice or just the very nature of the device?


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23 Jan 2015   #2
TVeblen

Microsoft Community Contributor Award Recipient

Windows 7 64 Bit Home Premium SP1
 
 

The nature of the device.

The issue with a BIOS flash is that the BIOS runs the basic bootstrap process that starts the PC.
If the BIOS code is corrupted the machine will not POST, and if the machine will not POST then you can't get in to fix it.

Note that modern motherboards can have "BIOS backup" built in - basically a second EEPROM chip. (Modern BIOS/UEFI are held on EEPROMs, not CMOS BTW. But we continue to use that term anyway)

That is why I always recommend using the BIOS Flash utility built into the BIOS
There is much less chance of anything interfering with the flash and corrupting the file. Other than a power outage it is as safe as it can be.

Ann SSD can be messed up and fixed but because it is a device that can be accessed from any system. This may not apply in the case of a firmware flash gone bad however.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
23 Jan 2015   #3
ICIT2LOL

Desk1 7 Home Prem / Desk2 10 Pro / Main lap Asus ROG 10 Pro 2 laptop Toshiba 7 Pro Asus P2520 7 & 10
 
 

Yep I get what you are saying TV and I agree the CMOS stuff is really old hat and personally I never used any of that EEPROM stuff myself because at the time (over 25 years ago) I was not even close to understanding anything in those devices apart form they were full of transistors and had different functions.

Perhaps I am being a little over simplistic when I said why cannot the BIOS chip be made accessible at any time and not ne be wrecked much like the chips on a SSD. It does seem to me that is this day and age that some way of getting the BIOS able to be fixed as needed does not carry the problem of being trashed it simply does not make sense. To my simple mind if one can access the BIOS by F2 or whatever it happens to be then it should be repairable just like changing the data on a SSD chip - so what is going on inside that chip that makes it non repairable? Being quite cynical I have this thought that maybe the manufacturers are building this into those chips for nothing more than gain - in having to repair them ( a replaceable chip would make sense much like a CPU) but instead they are hard wired to the board for no other reason (to me). I know that a lot of the boards now carry a dual BIOS I think my Gigabyte Sandy Bridge board has it as a matter of fact which begs the question why is this not an industry standard?

But getting back to SSD's it was the original experience with those what looked like to me anomalous spikes that sent me off looking for answers. Now I have run that HD Tune program a few times now and the spikes occur at quite different times although the machine is at idle and the ambient temp etc is just about the same on all runs.
Maybe it is the HD Tune test that causes these spikes I don't know and it was a matter of curiosity to me seeing that there are a lot of members chasing their tails to scrape every last second of speed out of their SSD and then posting the times and while it might be interesting to know those figures I think we do that out of perhaps just bragging rights because to me those test runs really are only for seeing what an errant SSD is doing and diagnosing what the problem is.
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23 Jan 2015   #4
TVeblen

Microsoft Community Contributor Award Recipient

Windows 7 64 Bit Home Premium SP1
 
 

I also think it is all a matter of bragging rights. I believe there is a difference between every day, real world use and test bench marks.

As for BIOS, it is a matter of money. The extra stuff that benefits the user comes at a cost, and that is why there are cheap boards and expensive boards.

And the bios "chip" is replaceable! You just need a solder gun and nerves of steel! And you would not believe what they charge you for a replacement chip. I've seen $35 US. (for a 25 cent part).
My System SpecsSystem Spec
23 Jan 2015   #5
TVeblen

Microsoft Community Contributor Award Recipient

Windows 7 64 Bit Home Premium SP1
 
 

You might also be looking at "Burst" speed. Chunks of data that can be moved in big pieces.
Of course, it is the overall transfer rate that matters. An average of the fastest and slowest transfers.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
23 Jan 2015   #6
ICIT2LOL

Desk1 7 Home Prem / Desk2 10 Pro / Main lap Asus ROG 10 Pro 2 laptop Toshiba 7 Pro Asus P2520 7 & 10
 
 

Yep TV I saw just the other day in a Techsupport newsletter I think it was re some Mum in New York who took to micro-soldering after her sons had dropped iPod or whatever down the toilet for a laugh She now runs a business off what she learnt and me well I wouldn't mind doing that and I seem to remember from way back that those chips came with tight fitting pins and were removable with a bit of prising and teasing out of sockets so why not now??
But I still think a simple replaceable part would be the ideal but I suppose it all comes down to costs and mass production.

Now I took to using that ATTO program for benchmarking and it came up with some really weird stuff that I have to get in and see what is happening and if it correlates with the HD Tune stuff trouble is I am not at home on my tester machine and having to do this on the machine that you know I have problems with.

Attached are two pics one of those random spikes I posted a while ago and one that I did just now and I cannot see if there is any significant similarities between the two.


Attached Thumbnails
SSD's working with yours-hd-2.png  
Attached Images
SSD's working with yours-benchmark-1.png 
My System SpecsSystem Spec
23 Jan 2015   #7
TVeblen

Microsoft Community Contributor Award Recipient

Windows 7 64 Bit Home Premium SP1
 
 

Those aren't spikes, those are dips. And I would not venture a guess as to what could be causing those.

You might take a look at all the SSD benchmarks posted here on SevenForums to see if that is common.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
23 Jan 2015   #8
ICIT2LOL

Desk1 7 Home Prem / Desk2 10 Pro / Main lap Asus ROG 10 Pro 2 laptop Toshiba 7 Pro Asus P2520 7 & 10
 
 

Mmm well I did see what Wolfgang posted an I don't remember it having such large dips (sorry I took up and down to be spikes) and the other runs I have done with that HD the dips come in very different spots. It was just a curiosity that sent me off chasing answers because in some cases the dips were really significant those in the pic are really quite small compared to some.

I actually started this thread as Wolfgang and I were slowly trashing his Macrium thread and it was a suggestion of his that prompted me to look into the working in SSD's. Normally he can answer straight away anything on SSDs and this particular aspect of them had him scratching his head.

Now I must do some more searching on the where's and whyfore's of the SSD chips.
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 SSD's working with yours




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