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Windows 7: Windows designer explains why Windows 8 is such a mess

22 Feb 2014   #31
gregrocker

 

My point is that they hid the Desktop on Surface Pro and don't want us using it at all - just like iPad .

It just happened to appear behind the Control Panel on the copy of Surface Pro I was playing with that night. It took a few visits to Control Panel before I spied it hiding in the background. It was not on the Start screen or in any menu I checked.

This is not the normal Surface which still has the Desktop. That they remove it on Pro proves their intentions all along - killing off the desktop perfected in Win7 which earned them a billion customers and drives the world economy. It could be a Saturday Night Live skit.

If your point is that I don't know Surface Pro, I merrily plead guilty. I gave mine to Rayda for her son.


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22 Feb 2014   #32
Britton30
Microsoft MVP

Windows 7 Ultimate X64 SP1
 
 

Strange, I would think software developers should know what their potential customers want, not what they think we need. It sounds like the thought control and history re-writing in Orwell's 1984, "the war is going well...."
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22 Feb 2014   #33
whs
Microsoft MVP

Vista, Windows7, Mint Mate, Zorin, Windows 8
 
 

Quote:
I would think software developers should know what their potential customers want
Not really. The developers hardly ever get in touch with any customer. There are layers of marketing organizations that are supposed to speak to the customers. They do this more or less and develop product objectives from what THEY think should be done. In the meantime the developers - especially the architects - are already 3 steps ahead and are struggeling now to fumble those objectives into their architecture.

It is not such a streamlined process as one may think and there is a lot of infighting between the different camps. The result is usually a horse designed by a committee - which is a donkey if you are lucky or it is a kangaroo
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22 Feb 2014   #34
King Arthur

Windows 7 Ultimate x64 SP1
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by whs View Post
Quote:
I would think software developers should know what their potential customers want
Not really. The developers hardly ever get in touch with any customer. There are layers of marketing organizations that are supposed to speak to the customers. They do this more or less and develop product objectives from what THEY think should be done. In the meantime the developers - especially the architects - are already 3 steps ahead and are struggeling now to fumble those objectives into their architecture.

It is not such a streamlined process as one may think and there is a lot of infighting between the different camps. The result is usually a horse designed by a committee - which is a donkey if you are lucky or it is a kangaroo
And free/non-commercial/open-source isn't any better either, just in case someone here thinks that this is only a problem with commercial/closed-source software devs like Microsoft and Apple.

Case in point: Ubuntu, Mozilla, Google, Opera, and uTorrent to name some names. All of them (and many others) are infamous for ignoring or even outright defying user wants, requirements, and demands.
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22 Feb 2014   #35
Dallas 7

Windows 7 Pro x64
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by whs View Post
A software development group rarely listens to the users for the simple reason that the users are usually 5 years behind their strategy and thinking. In my 35 years of operating system development I have rarely seen customer input that was integrated into any development plan.

Now that does not mean that mistakes were not corrected. But when it came to strategy and direction, the customers had really very little influence.

I remember being on a task force where we travelled around the world in small groups during 4 weeks visiting many Fortune 500 companies. We were looking for inputs for our future product strategies - technical and Ts&Cs. The trips were very pleasant because we were often invited to lush dinners - but the inputs we received were very meager. The customers were mostely concerned with their daily problems and brought up a lot of nits and lice. But the impact on what we were doing was quasi nil.

The same happens here. MS has a strategy for the future (at least I hope so) and we are moaning about the start menu and other nits. I don't think that will impress them a lot.

I have a strategy for the future also, and it definitely does not include W8 or 8.1.
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22 Feb 2014   #36
Lady Fitzgerald

Win 7 Ultimate 64 bit
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Dallas 7 View Post
Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by whs View Post
A software development group rarely listens to the users for the simple reason that the users are usually 5 years behind their strategy and thinking. In my 35 years of operating system development I have rarely seen customer input that was integrated into any development plan.

Now that does not mean that mistakes were not corrected. But when it came to strategy and direction, the customers had really very little influence.

I remember being on a task force where we travelled around the world in small groups during 4 weeks visiting many Fortune 500 companies. We were looking for inputs for our future product strategies - technical and Ts&Cs. The trips were very pleasant because we were often invited to lush dinners - but the inputs we received were very meager. The customers were mostely concerned with their daily problems and brought up a lot of nits and lice. But the impact on what we were doing was quasi nil.

The same happens here. MS has a strategy for the future (at least I hope so) and we are moaning about the start menu and other nits. I don't think that will impress them a lot.

I have a strategy for the future also, and it definitely does not include W8 or 8.1.
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22 Feb 2014   #37
lehnerus2000

W7 Ultimate SP1, LM18 MATE, W10IP VM, W10 Home, #All 64 bit
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Britton30 View Post
Another good post Greg. It's called not seeing the forest for the trees. Or shooting your foot off. Or cutting off your nose to spite your face, MS id doing them all, and quite well, unfortunately for computer users.
Killed the goose that laid the golden eggs.

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Britton30 View Post
Strange, I would think software developers should know what their potential customers want, not what they think we need. It sounds like the thought control and history re-writing in Orwell's 1984, "the war is going well...."
IMO, Apps + locked down devices, are the modern version of Orwell's "Newspeak".
Quote:
Newspeak is the fictional language in the novel Nineteen Eighty-Four, written by George Orwell. It is a controlled language created by the totalitarian state as a tool to limit freedom of thought, and concepts that pose a threat to the regime such as freedom, self-expression, individuality, peace, etc. Any form of thought alternative to the party’s construct is classified as "thoughtcrime."
Wikipedia
Newspeak - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
.
Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by King Arthur View Post
Case in point: Ubuntu, Mozilla, Google, Opera, and uTorrent to name some names. All of them (and many others) are infamous for ignoring or even outright defying user wants, requirements, and demands.
You forgot GNOME.
They aren't called "the GUI Nazis" for nothing.
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22 Feb 2014   #38
whs
Microsoft MVP

Vista, Windows7, Mint Mate, Zorin, Windows 8
 
 

Quote:
I have a strategy for the future also, and it definitely does not include W8 or 8.1.
That is absolutely no problem. Everybody should do what they like. I am not a big fan of 8.1 either. But I have two 8.1 systems and it is kind of growing on me - especially since it is faster and has a smaller footprint.

On my Asis Transformer that came with only a 30GB disk it uses only half of that disk and the Atom processor performs extremely well with 8.1. I doubt that Windows 7 would do as well.
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23 Feb 2014   #39
Iforgot

Win7 64
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by whs View Post
Quote:
I would think software developers should know what their potential customers want
Not really. The developers hardly ever get in touch with any customer. There are layers of marketing organizations that are supposed to speak to the customers. They do this more or less and develop product objectives from what THEY think should be done. In the meantime the developers - especially the architects - are already 3 steps ahead and are struggeling now to fumble those objectives into their architecture.

It is not such a streamlined process as one may think and there is a lot of infighting between the different camps. The result is usually a horse designed by a committee - which is a donkey if you are lucky or it is a kangaroo

Does this mean, Win8 is a wombat?
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23 Feb 2014   #40
Iforgot

Win7 64
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by whs View Post
Quote:
I have a strategy for the future also, and it definitely does not include W8 or 8.1.
That is absolutely no problem. Everybody should do what they like. I am not a big fan of 8.1 either. But I have two 8.1 systems and it is kind of growing on me - especially since it is faster and has a smaller footprint.

On my Asis Transformer that came with only a 30GB disk it uses only half of that disk and the Atom processor performs extremely well with 8.1. I doubt that Windows 7 would do as well.

I have an Asus D510 running a stripped back Win7 that was/is used as cdplayer/streamer/etc with touchscreen.
footprint is about 14GB on a 30Gb SSD and it's fast enough for the tasks..
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 Windows designer explains why Windows 8 is such a mess




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