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Windows 7: Normal service is resumed as Windows 7's growth once again.....

27 Jun 2014   #111
Golden
Microsoft MVP

Windows 7 Ult. x64
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Kari View Post
Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by SIW2 View Post
Win 8 is about getting users into online subscription services. That is what the metro stuff is for. Boiling frogs.
Could you or anyone else explain me why all this complaint about Windows Store apps and their existence? Why to complain about an existing additional feature you don't have to ever see or use?

It's like complaining about additional rear USB ports in a desktop PC. "That AcerDellHP Tower-XXL PC sucks because it has additional USB ports in the back of the case although I do not want them and never use them. It really sucks".

Using a local account and booting to the desktop, you do not have to use any more cloud or online services you use in Windows 7. That really is a fact, as opposite to quite a lot what has been said in this and other similar threads.

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by gregrocker View Post
But this involves a lot of work to install a suitable Start menu, change all the defaults from the Crapps (I'd uninstall them), and then you'll still find the need to go looking for important functions hidden in the suppressed Metro settings.
A lot of work? Downloading and installing your favorite Start Menu replacement? Excluding setting Lock and Start screen backgrounds and creating new users, what else is hidden "in the suppressed Metro settings"?

Just for my own interest (I like the 8 Start Menu and don't use any replacements), I just timed the process needed. Googled "Windows 8.1 Start Menu replacement", first hit was Don't wait for Windows 9: How to get a Start Menu, windowed Metro apps today | PCWorld, which mentioned Classic Shell quite in the beginning of the article. Googled Classic Shell. I had found, downloaded and installed it in less than two minutes. This two minutes is a one time operation which, if I had kept the kept the Classic Shell, I would not have to repeat this anymore in the future.

Quite funny is that a great number of those complaining about Windows 8 Start Menu do in fact not use the default Windows Start Menu in Windows 7 but have instead replaced it with Classic Shell or something similar. So nothing new there, these users installed it voluntarily in Windows 7 and complain when they have to install it in Windows 8.

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by gregrocker View Post
This is why after over a dozen installs by the time its all adjusted I am so done with it I dont' even return. I also will no longer adjust it for friends because of the endless need for follow up. Not one of them has said there is any advantage and most end up wanting to return to 7.
I have no proof of this, I only have a theory; I honestly believe this has quite a lot to do with the attitude Windows 8 is shown and presented to new users. I have upgraded quite a many computers both privately for my friends and neighbors and at work to Windows 8 and 8.1, the feedback I get is almost totally positive, the Eight newbies satisfied and happy. Especially lately when a great number of users have not only upgraded from XP to 8 due end of support but also upgraded the hardware, too, a common reaction I get has been "Oh I thought it would be difficult but this is really nice".

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by gregrocker View Post
As Si says, this is designed to break us of the desktop even after MS spent 20 years building the desktop to perfection in Win7 to where it drives the world economy.
Every now and then I read something here that really surprises me. This statement is one of those, especially coming from a geek I really respect.

Install a Start Menu replacement and set your PC to boot to desktop. It's there, exactly as it was in Vista or Seven (apart of the really enhanced File Explorer). How can Microsoft's gesture to add a setting which makes it possible to totally bypass Start Screen and boot directly to Desktop and use it as you use Windows 7 be seen as a try to "break us of the desktop"?

I have tried to learn to understand this but it seems to be an impossible task, I still do not understand: Windows 8 sucks because of the missing Start Menu which takes a minute or two to install, and because of the Start Screen and Windows Store Apps, all of which a user will never see if he does not want to.

Kari
Kari


My System SpecsSystem Spec
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27 Jun 2014   #112
lehnerus2000

W7 Ultimate SP1, LM18 MATE, W10IP VM, W10 Home, #All 64 bit
 
 
Cloud OS Overlords

Sorry but I agree with gregrocker.

The whole point of W8 was to soften people up for the inevitable (at that stage of the plan) "Windows Cloud OS + Store" model.
That's why MS destroyed the Start Menu code when they found out that people were disabling Metro (in W8DP).
The ultimate goal of the Store is to eliminate any possibility of accessing/installing software by any other method.

MS claims that this is to protect users from paedophiles and terrorists ... oops ... cyber-criminals.
The real reason was "Cloud OS + Store = Infinite Recurring Profits" (at least that's what MS thought).

As jimbo45 says, "Pay-Per-Click-OS" (that probably should be "Pay-Per-Poke-OS").

MS failed to realise that Windows users won't just accept any old change just because it was made by MS (unlike Apple users and Apple).
Linux users react the same way (as Windows users) when "Distros Go Wild" (like Unity in Ubuntu).

When that sleazy move backfired, MS had to make concessions, like the fake Start Menu button in W8.1.
They've had to make even more concessions since then, because their initial plan p***** off so many people that the sales of the W8 series have never really recovered (just like Vista).

In fact (depending on which statistics site you visit):
  • XP still has ~2x the market share of W8 (it has been dropping though)
  • W7 has ~4x the market share of W8 (its share has been steadily increasing)
Although I concede that once you have disabled the useless features W8 seems to run OK.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
28 Jun 2014   #113
Golden
Microsoft MVP

Windows 7 Ult. x64
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by lehnerus2000 View Post
Although I concede that once you have disabled the useless features W8 seems to run OK.
I think that is exactly the point that Kari is trying to make...and its easy to do too. Apparently for some, its like the end of the world.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
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28 Jun 2014   #114
jimbo45

Linux CENTOS 7 / various Windows OS'es and servers
 
 

Hi there

Actually Windows 8.1 update 1 isn't too bad especially if you set the system to boot straight to the desktop-- I tended to use custom toolbars in any case even on W7 so the lack of a "classical" menu is no longer an issue for me. - Regarding Linux - I hated it when Ubuntu switched to their stupid "Unity" mode - I then switched to OPENSUSE and never looked back. Linux Mint is also another excellent choice as is the time honoured and venerable DEBIAN.

Linux users have the luxury of switching distros though - windows users don't however.

My problem with the store is that unless you have the Enterprise version or a TechNet subscription (mine finally runs out in October unfortunately) then most people don't get an ISO and have to perform an update via an .exe file from the store. If the update fails then you are doubly hosed as you probably will have to recover your original system from the manufacturers partition - which means you will have to apply any changes / programs you installed again.

You can tell people until you are blue in the face to take backups - but most people never do - even on these very forums people get into all sorts of problems which could easily be fixed had they only taken a backup before installing / updating / downloading something.

The problem also with Metro is that these apps use a fixed screen size like 1/4, 1/2 etc which is a waste of space if you have a multi monitor setup - especially with at least one large monitor --these need to be windowable and re-sizeable - but otherwise they *could* be useful - I like the idea of live tiles or applications (rather like VISTA's Gadgets) but currently these applications aren't enticing enough to make me want to use them --this could change in future.

As far as the latest Windows 8.1 update 1 - I'm quite happy with it - and as I'm getting a Surface Pro 3 with a pen etc - the whole touch part is a much more pleasurable experience than trying any sort of touch on W7.

On a desktop I agree touch isn't really (or at all) needed but on some tablets and "dual purpose" devices like the surface pro 3 then it's fine. This device - especially with the docking station is far superior to my laptop and also saves me the need of having to use something like an iPad when I don't need to use a computer. The W7 portable devices are still a mess - so unless you are always going to be stuck at a desktop there are some decent features in the new OS.

(Note the surface pro 3 is an INTEL based machine that runs full Windows -- not like the surface pro 2 which is an RT based system -- and I think we've all got the feeling that the RT system isn't long for this world).

I think these days even desktop users can get a much more pleasant W8 experience by making sure they are running W8.1 with the latest update called update 1 and there's update 2 on the horizon and possibly Windows 9 which should address the issues of both DESKTOP and MOBILE users.

I'd certainly recommend some people who have never tried it to test W8.1 in a Virtual machine --you can download the Enterprise version FREE from the Ms site for a decently long trial too.

With the new people at the top of Ms I'm much more happy about the future of Windows -- I don't now think it's going all cloud and subscription based although Ms will certainly be offering some sort of billable services such as they are doing with OFFICE 365 although Office 2013 will still be available for individual purchase for the foreseeable future.

Cheers
jimbo
My System SpecsSystem Spec
28 Jun 2014   #115
RoasterMen

Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by jimbo45 View Post
Hi there

Actually Windows 8.1 update 1 isn't too bad especially if you set the system to boot straight to the desktop
True, Slower PCs had an improvement in Windows 8.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
28 Jun 2014   #116
jimbo45

Linux CENTOS 7 / various Windows OS'es and servers
 
 

Hi there

I think also if we actually look at how people are using devices and look objectively without the initial vitriol that accompanied the initial Launch of W8 it's obvious some mistakes were made BIG time.

However it's true these days that people ARE using mobile devices more and more -- nothing wrong with that - but Ms really DID underestimate the continued use of a "Classical Desktop".

I travel a lot and sometimes even carrying a laptop is a pain -- a basic tablet certainly wasn't functional enough for times when I needed a computer. However the new "composite" devices which function both as a computer AND a tablet are the way of most of the future.

For example with a Surface Pro 3 - I can take it into a meeting without all the power paraphanalia of a Laptop and WIRELESSLY transmit my Power point / other demo to an external projector at HDMI (HD) quality -- really very much more convenient than using a conventional laptop --lighter too !! and no probs with Battery or power management -- and in this case Touch is incredibly useful too -- just swiping the screen to get the next page etc. The OS needs to have this capability built in -- W7 doesn't to any sensible degree.

Back at my desk I plug the surface pro 3 into into its docking station connected to a nice HUGE external monitor / keyboard / mouse and its in EVERY WAY a decent Pc (i7 with an SSD) .

(I still have to run W7 on it as a VM since some of the corporate backend apps don't yet run on W8.1 but that's the problem of the corporate stuff -- not Windows 8.1 itself).

I really feel if you give W8.1 a chance and look forward to Windows 8.2 (coming very soon) and eventually Windows 9 you will be pleasantly surprised.

A lot of the agro also has been caused by this wretched protected boot stuff and for most people getting hold of an ISO so making re-installation rather a lengthy and involved process -- however that's a problem with the DISTRIBUTION method of the OS rather than the OS itself and Ms hopefully are looking at that whole scenario again. I think they really did understand that they made a mistake but IMO are rectifying it OK - and I absloutel;y think the Surface Pro 3 is a great machine -- but watch your wallets !!

Cheers
jimbo
My System SpecsSystem Spec
28 Jun 2014   #117
dskiller

windows 7 64bit
 
 

I love windows 8.
I been using it on my workstation/battlestation...
I used to hate it because I had some stuff that didnt work right. but I now use a vm to get around that problem. I was already vm software for linux and android developing.

also tweaked my uefi system with ultra fast boot enable and I can turn the computer on and be at the desktop screen in 10sec. which is nice if I want to check something before leaving for my other job.


I look at windows 7 now and think about how its starting to look dated compared to everything else.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
28 Jun 2014   #118
gregrocker

 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Golden View Post
Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by lehnerus2000 View Post
Although I concede that once you have disabled the useless features W8 seems to run OK.
I think that is exactly the point that Kari is trying to make...and its easy to do too. Apparently for some, its like the end of the world.
It is NOT easy for the average consumer to change all the default programs from crApps that grab full screen and can't be closed without a roadmap. Unless you've found some magic new Start Menu, these are not shut off when you install it.

When I did this for friends I got follow-up phone calls for weeks requiring removing reader, photo viewer, video, and other crApps they couldn't even close, then having to reset the Default Programs to a decent reader, photo and video view, etc. etc. Each phone call required at least an hour's work on TeamViewer because there is no way to walk someone through all of 8's hidden passages once you add a Start menu.

Never in thousands of installs had I gotten so many calls to sort out what should have been the default apps to begin with, if they weren't trying to cRapture consumers into subscription apps which are absurdly cumbersome and poorly rendered.

For something "easy to do" I spent hours helping friends get a normal desktop on Windows 8, and won't mess with it any longer except to replace it with Win7. Not a one of those friends decided to keep it either. Why would they when Win7 is effortless by comparison?

They need bodies over at Eight Forums to populate the potemkin cloud future. Interesting that the one time I posted my concerns about 8 over there, they all agreed. Why is the 8 defense so much more shrill here? Because there's an audience?
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28 Jun 2014   #119
A Guy

Microsoft Community Contributor Award Recipient

Windows 7 Home Premium x64 SP1
 
 

I believe the defense is strong, because the defenders truly like 8. It's not so difficult to understand. Those who like 8 and have "figured it out", so to speak, see it's good side. I'm not saying it's for everyone, but they actually like it and have experience with 7 as well. I think their points have merit, and they just want to make sure people here don't just read the negative, and keep their assumption (acquired by reading others opinions) that 8 is crap. A Guy
My System SpecsSystem Spec
28 Jun 2014   #120
Kari

Microsoft Community Contributor Award Recipient

 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by gregrocker View Post
It is NOT easy for the average consumer to change all the default programs from crApps that grab full screen and can't be closed without a roadmap. Unless you've found some magic new Start Menu, these are not shut off when you install it.

When I did this for friends I got follow-up phone calls for weeks requiring removing reader, photo viewer, video, and other crApps they couldn't even close, then having to reset the Default Programs to a decent reader, photo and video view, etc. etc. Each phone call required at least an hour's work on TeamViewer because there is no way to walk someone through all of 8's hidden passages once you add a Start menu.

Never in thousands of installs had I gotten so many calls to sort out what should have been the default apps to begin with, if they weren't trying to cRapture consumers into subscription apps which are absurdly cumbersome and poorly rendered.

For something "easy to do" I spent hours helping friends get a normal desktop on Windows 8, and won't mess with it any longer except to replace it with Win7. Not a one of those friends decided to keep it either. Why would they when Win7 is effortless by comparison?

They need bodies over at Eight Forums to populate the potemkin cloud future. Interesting that the one time I posted my concerns about 8 over there, they all agreed. Why is the 8 defense so much more shrill here? Because there's an audience?
Before going in to your arguments any more, I really need to tell you this Greg:

I have had great respect for you, your expertise and knowledge and your way to work with various issues of so many OPs. But maybe this virtual forums life really is a metaphor for real life in that sense that as idols sometimes do fall in real life, they seem to fall here, too. Your usage of the word crap or rather letters cr in front of every word you can possible use them is naive, stupid and really disrespectful towards all those users who think differently than you. You really should be ashamed of that and keep your crApps and cRaptures and such to yourself. If you had let it be a one time "cool" joke in one post, that had been OK, but to continue this post after post is just plain stupid.

Another personal note before going further. may I ask you what do you mean with this:
"Interesting that the one time I posted my concerns about 8 over there, they all agreed. Why is the 8 defense so much more shrill here? Because there's an audience?"
As far as I can see and understand, as I am the loudest pro-Eight member in this thread, I take that as some kind of personal insult. Go back to Eight Forums and check my posts there, I have had a very consistent policy there too, to "fight" against these made-up horror stories and false / fake "information". In fact I have done most of my pro-Eight work there, not here where I only jump in to response to the worst untruths. You should know me better than to imply that I am posting in this or other similar threads here for audience sake.

I have also never agreed with this kind of opinions, not there nor here.

That being said, I want to repeat what I have said earlier. Knowing your attitude, it is no wonder that people who get you helping in setting up Windows 8 and listen you telling how crap that is and how everybody hates it are being influenced by this negative attitude. How come I do not get that feedback, after telling "look, it's exactly as Windows 7 except this here is even better and easier".

Let's look those standard complaints of yours. First, the Reader app. OK, I admit, out-of-the-box Windows 8 uses it as default PDF reader. This far what you say is true. But what about Windows 7, what's the default PDF reader? Yes, you got it: there isn't one. To get a PDF reader in Windows 7 you have to download and install it. So the only difference between Seven and Eight in this case is that although to use a third party PDF reader you need to install it in both, but in case you do not want to do it in Eight you have one built-in.

The Picture app and the difficulty to get it away? Out-of-the-box Windows 8.1 Update 1 opens images when double clicked using the desktop image viewer (Windows Photo Viewer).

Video app then? Not every user likes Windows Media Player, installing a third party media player instead. Whatever the tool, WMP or VLC or any other, launch it once and set all defaults to it and the modern Video App opens never again when a video file is played.

Makes me wonder why these small adjustments take hours from you when I need minutes.

Dismayed but sincere,

Kari
My System SpecsSystem Spec
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