Germany: Wireless owner responsible for others download

But if you leave your keys in the ignition you may well be charged with contribulitory negligence...

The car analogy does not fit. The only part of it that has any water is that the insurance company might be recalcitrant on paying the claim because of your actions.

That /may/ be true, but that is NOT the same as being charged as an accessory to the theft!!! (That is what this case is about)

Not even close.

Edit:

The worst part about this is that even if you DO secure your system, every 12 months last years systems are now crackable in a few minutes. There is no way to completely and absolutely protect yourself, yyour property or your WiFi from being stolen.

We might as well just pass a law saying that WiFi is illegal. Oh and owning a car too, if it can be stolen because... you left the keys in, you parked in a bad neghorhood, you left it on the street...

I think we should just go the German Way... public transportation with the trains.... from city to city with taxi ...but that would be too much money for that kind of change

or the asian way... jeepneys and tricycles... that would just make us third world.

what I see is that people complain... they want change but any change, they complain about those changes... so its like putting on two left shoes.... walking in a circle with some people.

Me personally... i loved asia... i liked the idea of walking out in the street and just jumping on public transportation within a matter of seconds and paying like 10-20 cents to get me 10 miles up the road... not too shabby i must say!

acurasd said:

I think we should just go the German Way... public transportation with the trains.... from city to city with taxi ...but that would be too much money for that kind of change

or the asian way... jeepneys and tricycles... that would just make us third world.

what I see is that people complain... they want change but any change, they complain about those changes... so its like putting on two left lefts.... walking in a circle with some people.

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I mean no disrespect to you... but you say that now, but wait until its YOUR wireless that has been hacked, and YOU facing prosecution, your attitude will quickly change

severedsolo said:

acurasd said:

I think we should just go the German Way... public transportation with the trains.... from city to city with taxi ...but that would be too much money for that kind of change

or the asian way... jeepneys and tricycles... that would just make us third world.

what I see is that people complain... they want change but any change, they complain about those changes... so its like putting on two left lefts.... walking in a circle with some people.

Click to expand...

I mean no disrespect to you... but you say that now, but wait until its YOUR wireless that has been hacked, and YOU facing prosecution, your attitude will quickly change

Click to expand...

True true...I am one of the few that has through about that... that is why my wireless has been turned off and Cat5 is the pipeline of my house... besides.. as a computer geek... why would I have 54m when I can have 100/1000

but i do get what you are saying...

Everything in this world is so policital...

I was in my socialology class and I couldn't make my point across without offending someone but that class you have to debate.

It is like being over in iraq and you are not allowed to shoot back unless they shoot at you first...well if i am half dead with a bullet in my chest... well that makes me a liability to all around me...

I think being policital creates alot of people... people cannot speak their mind...people do not want to use common sense anymore becuase "that just does not work"

Like with the guy with the wireless... if he was on vacation... it was illegal for the guy to hack his internet in the first place... morally!
the guy should have never done it. Was that guy ever convicted of hacking his internet or was the courts more concerned about who stole that song?
How could a guy be accused of something if he was not there in the first place. I don't know about you but if i was judge..
that case would have been cut pretty short....all he would have to do is prove he wasn't there... therefore common sense.

Have a look at this example.

yes but whs in that example, the woman on the phone is in the wrong... i fail to see how her neighbour who's Wifi she was hacking could be held responsible, any more than if her Bank account details had been hacked by someone else on that network, the owner of the network wouldn't be responsible for that.

severedsolo said:

yes but whs in that example, the woman on the phone is in the wrong... i fail to see how her neighbour who's Wifi she was hacking could be held responsible, any more than if her Bank account details had been hacked by someone else on that network, the owner of the network wouldn't be responsible for that.

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That is true. I just thought this funny story somehow fit the discussion emphasizing the need to protect your WiFi.

acurasd said:

... that is why my wireless has been turned off and Cat5 is the pipeline of my house...

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Agree! The first thing I do on a new computer is disable wireless.

I am very strongly against all kind of piracy and illegal downloads. That said, I think this court order is a step beyond stupidity.

We talked about this with some guys tonight when I went to have some beer in my local pub. We were wondering if this means that if we had our laptops with us, and we used the pub's free access point to download some music, would the owner of the pub be held responsible?

Kari said:

I am very strongly against all kind of piracy and illegal downloads. That said, I think this court order is a step beyond stupidity.

We talked about this with some guys tonight when I went to have some beer in my local pub. We were wondering if this means that if we had our laptops with us, and we used the pub's free access point to download some music, would the owner of the pub be held responsible?

Click to expand...

By the scope of the law as defined by that ruling...yes, the owner of the pub would be responsible. Perhaps even more so, because he is knowingly providing the access, not having it stolen from him.

EDIT: I don't know anything about German law, nor it's legal system, but I assume that it is similar to US law, in that a ruling doesn't necessarily create law, it would be tested by future legal actions. Unfortunately, that doesn't necessarily help the person against whom this ruling was made or anyone else, if they lack the resources to fight.

EDIT: Perhaps, those of you who live in Germany should establish a defense fund, not only to help those caught in this gnarly web, but for the purpose of preventing it from becoming a legal club to force German citizens to kowtow to this kind of abusive use of the law.

seekermeister said:

Kari said:

I am very strongly against all kind of piracy and illegal downloads. That said, I think this court order is a step beyond stupidity.

We talked about this with some guys tonight when I went to have some beer in my local pub. We were wondering if this means that if we had our laptops with us, and we used the pub's free access point to download some music, would the owner of the pub be held responsible?

Click to expand...

By the scope of the law as defined by that ruling...yes, the owner of the pub would be responsible. Perhaps even more so, because he is knowingly providing the access, not having it stolen from him.

EDIT: I don't know anything about German law, nor it's legal system, but I assume that it is similar to US law, in that a ruling doesn't necessarily create law, it would be tested by future legal actions. Unfortunately, that doesn't necessarily help the person against whom this ruling was made or anyone else, if they lack the resources to fight.

Click to expand...

German Law is very different to Anglo-Saxon (including US) law. Your law is a case law which is based on prior case decisions. German law is a Roman law model meaning that it is a written law. The decisions of the courts are in essence "clarifications" of that written law which become an addendum to the law. And as such it becomes law itself - very hard to fight, especially if the supreme court has made a ruling (which was the case here).

whs said:

seekermeister said:

Kari said:

I am very strongly against all kind of piracy and illegal downloads. That said, I think this court order is a step beyond stupidity.

We talked about this with some guys tonight when I went to have some beer in my local pub. We were wondering if this means that if we had our laptops with us, and we used the pub's free access point to download some music, would the owner of the pub be held responsible?

Click to expand...

By the scope of the law as defined by that ruling...yes, the owner of the pub would be responsible. Perhaps even more so, because he is knowingly providing the access, not having it stolen from him.

EDIT: I don't know anything about German law, nor it's legal system, but I assume that it is similar to US law, in that a ruling doesn't necessarily create law, it would be tested by future legal actions. Unfortunately, that doesn't necessarily help the person against whom this ruling was made or anyone else, if they lack the resources to fight.

Click to expand...

German Law is very different to Anglo-Saxon (including US) law. Your law is a case law which is based on prior case decisions. German law is a Roman law model meaning that it is a written law. The decisions of the courts are in essence "clarifications" of that written law which become an addendum to the law. And as such it becomes law itself - very hard to fight, especially if the supreme court has made a ruling (which was the case here).

Click to expand...

Let it be written. Let it be done. I regret to hear that your system is so rigid.

It is not rigid. It is just different. If I am not mistaken, all Continental European countries have the Roman model. The pro is more legal stability. I don't think many people here would be happy with the other system.