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Windows 7: Please help me narrow down some components for a new PC

02 Mar 2016   #51
ignatzatsonic

Microsoft Community Contributor Award Recipient

Windows 7 Home Premium SP1, 64-bit
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by tgfyhre View Post

How could I possibly know if any of these are compelling enough to pick it over, say, the Gigabyte Gaming 7?
You couldn't.

Unless you had an intimate knowledge of the board manufacturer's design, procurement, and manufacturing processes. Which you don't and can't.

It's mostly marketing babble to induce you to spend more money than necessary. The same tactics are used across most industries. You would rather have "military grade" yada yada than mere "civilian grade" yada yada, wouldn't you? 10 of something is surely better than 7, am I right? You did buy that 200 watt stereo rather than that 140 watt stereo, didn't you?

And on and on. The profit margin on a $300 board is much much higher than on a $170 board.

The degree of babble has increased in the last 5 or 10 years as the manufacturers face a declining PC market, particularly in the do-it-yourself segment and are straining to differentiate themselves from each other to maintain market share. That's also why you see garish color schemes and "features" that are purely stylistic, with no function at all--despite the babble. If the tactic didn't work, it would have been abandoned.

Ideally, you'd like to find more plain-speaking hard-boiled reviews that separate the wheat from the chaff, particularly as regards long-term reliability, but that's expensive to implement and would incur the wrath of manufacturers and put the reviewer on a s*** list, never to receive more free samples. So, you get more of the same, one hand washing the other and everybody's happy. Except the consumer.


My System SpecsSystem Spec
.
03 Mar 2016   #52
chefduane

Win 7 Home Prem x64 SP1
 
 

^ This is extremely sound analysis and advice. Agree with everything stated. One thing that I also take into account is what I call marginal effectiveness or, in economics - marginal gain. Is spending an extra $75 on a 4.2ghz chip worth it over a $75 less 3.6ghz chip? What is the marginal effectiveness of having the extra .6ghz? Will you really ever even notice it? Unless doing some specific calc heavy large processes, nothing really. But you get to say to have a 4ghz+ machine that you probably didn't really need, and are out the $75 to boot (which of course gets into opportunity costs, etc..) If one has money to spare and ya' just gotta' have it, then build the beast! But you probably could also build a similar machine for much less and would not be able to tell the difference between the two in a blind test. Marginal effectiveness of additional cost.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
03 Mar 2016   #53
tgfyhre

Windows 7 32bit Home Premium
 
 

Some good advice here. Thanks for the input. I agree with what was said about reviews - it's frustrating that they never mention any of this "marketing babble" that is supposed to differentiate the different boards. I read a bunch of reviews on the AsRock Extreme 7+ and a few other AsRock boards, and not one mentioned any of the bullet points I listed above that the company uses to sell the board. That's what's so frustrating about these reviews. Sure, they go over the usual tests, but they never mention if, for instance, the "Premium Memory Alloy Choke" or "High Density Glass Fabric PCB" has any effect or bearing on how the board functions, or if it makes any difference in quality whatsoever over other boards. Some of the features sound great, but who knows? AsRock has several features that seem to fight moisture, like the "High Density Glass Fabric PCB" and the "humidifier" mode, but is moisture really an issue with any of these boards? I'm guessing not. Shame the reviewers don't go more into dissecting the individual features of these boards and put them to the test.

I'm still deciding between the AsRock and Gigabyte. I know everyone has their preference. Some say Gigabyte has issues, others say AsRock has issues. I'm still leaning towards Gigabyte personally. Some of the early reviews on Newegg mention audio issues but maybe those issues have been worked out by now?

As far as a cooler, is there any particular brand that is known for using better quality/more effective/quieter fans? I'm still leaning to the I7 4Ghz because this PC will be lasting me for a good 5 years hopefully and I'd rather not wish later I went with the faster chip, since I do a lot of archiving, encoding, and multi-threaded applications. Plus with a 4Ghz I won't feel the need to mess around with overclocking so much since it's such a leap forward over what I'm currently using. What's a good cooler that will keep up with the I7 even with load? I'm staying away from CoolerMaster after 2 bad experiences with their V8 coolers on my current PC. I'd prefer to stick to a cooler instead of water-cooling.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
.

03 Mar 2016   #54
ignatzatsonic

Microsoft Community Contributor Award Recipient

Windows 7 Home Premium SP1, 64-bit
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by tgfyhre View Post

As far as a cooler, is there any particular brand that is known for using better quality/more effective/quieter fans? I'm still leaning to the I7 4Gz because this PC will be lasting me for a good 5 years hopefully and I'd rather not wish later I went with the faster chip, since I do a lot of archiving, encoding, and multi-threaded applications. Plus with a 4Gz I won't feel the need to mess around with overclocking so much since it's such a leap forward over what I'm currently using. What's a good cooler that will keep up with the I7 even with load?
The i7 will run noticeably warmer than an i5 at the same clock, but perfectly doable.

You have to decide on a few issues:

Have you unequivocally ruled out the dual tower bulky coolers?

If you are NOT going for a serious overclock, I'd certainly think there is no reason at all to use a dual tower cooler, even with an i7 under a good load. Any of several single tower models from Scythe or Noctua should be fine.

Are you the type that thinks that it's worthwhile to try to knock load temps down from say 72 to 66 and that "better quality" is pronounced as "lower temperatures"?

Is fan noise level a concern at all? All other things equal, greater rpm means more cooling and more noise. Anything above 1000 rpm on a "quiet" 120 mm fan tends to be audible at 3 or 4 feet distance.

Do you have intentions of running more than say 3 chassis fans?

Your motherboard is a factor in cooling---some will have more PWM fan ports and some will have a more granular fan control adjustment----although any brand should have enough control for the non-obsessive. PWM fans are generally a good idea.

If you are wedded to a particular RAM kit, it may have clearance issues with a large cooler that overhangs RAM slots.

Some cooler brands have noticeably better mounting systems that are less fussy and complicated.

Some come with useful accessories such as thermal paste or low-noise adapters.

You need to come to a conclusion on the case first as it's width will limit what coolers you can use.

Here's a list, linked to reviews of each:

Recommended Heatsinks | silentpcreview.com
My System SpecsSystem Spec
03 Mar 2016   #55
tgfyhre

Windows 7 32bit Home Premium
 
 

My biggest concern with a cooler is that I live on the 3rd floor and it gets very warm in the summer even with the air conditioner. And the air conditioner is incredibly loud so sometimes I just have to turn it off to give my ears and sanity a break, or when I want to watch a movie. The air conditioner is provided by the apartment complex so I can't replace it. Often it's 80+ degrees - sometimes closer to 90 in the hottest summer months. Right now it's much cooler of course - around 70-74. The summer heat makes a lot more work for the cooler. I won't be going for a crazy overclock - If I get an I7 6700 it runs at 4Ghz and I may bump it to 4.2 if it's easy to do (sounds like it should be very simple with any good motherboard that has simple auto-overclock features). I might not even bother with trying for an overclock since 4.0 is a huge bump up from my old I7 920 and any overclocking will just add to my heat concerns. My current PC has 3 front fans, a top fan, 2 rear fans, plus the cooler and video card, and it makes a racket. I'd love to cut down on noise but I don't even know if that's possible if I want to keep cooling optimal. I'd rather sacrifice quiet for better cooling, but it would be nice to find a balance if possible. Some cases offer noise dampening but I'm not sure how effective it is or how much that adds to the cost of the case.

I'm not sure what to get for memory yet so I'm not locked to anything specific. I know I want DDR4. As far as brand of memory or other features, I'm not sure. I want fast reliable memory but I'm not trying to be in a competition so it doesn't have to be the fastest memory available.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
03 Mar 2016   #56
Layback Bear

Windows 7 Pro. 64/SP-1
 
 

I'm glad you have a concern for cooling. I also do. My grandpa computer has a i7-960 which are little heaters. A Corsair i80 with push pull takes care of the heat with good case fans.

The computer in my new system in (My System Specs) runs very cool but it did cost a lot more money and a lot more work.
So you are correct their is a balance that has to be found between what you want, what you need and what your are willing to spend. We do know the feeling of getting confused when trying to select the proper combination of hardware. We that build computers have gone through it. Been there, done that. It gets frustrating and confusing, but one can make it enjoyable. You will learn a lot.

Just take your time and keep lots of notes.

On my last build I went through all the research and figured out what I wanted cost more than I could spend at that time.
So I saved for over a year to get the needed money.
Of course after waiting that long all the notes meant nothing because most all the things I had selected were a year old and newer things came out that needed to be investigate. Once again I had to start with new research. It's a never ending war when it comes to picking the hardware.
The big thing I guess I'm trying to get across is; if need be save more money and once you have made your choices, pull the trigger and buy or you will never get your computer built.
Their will always be price changes and their will always be newer hardware in the near future.
That is just the way the computer world is.

You have also a concern about noise as most of us do. Their is a golden rule.
If you want fans that mover air properly and do it quietly they will cost a lot more money.
You can research fan until the cows come home and that is what you will find out.
You can buy fans for $5.00 or $30.00 plus. Only your ears and your computer temps. will know which one will be best for you. Most of us have 2 or 3 brands we favor.

Once you have selected for sure these the hard part is over.

1. Case
2. Power supply
3. Motherboard
4. Cpu

I looked for weeks for a case and then in one post Steve pointed out a case to me. I investigated and research and bang I pulled the trigger and bought it. Thank you Steve. No matter what I want to do this case will work well. It ended up working not just well but great.
Is their a new and better case for me? I don't know. Once I bought it the research was over.

No sense beating my self up always wonder if I would of made a different choice. Would the price change. I made the choice, DONE.
Get to the next part.

Picking hardware can be hell or somewhat enjoyable it all depends what one wants to make of it.

Notice I'm not telling you what parts to buy. We have many members that can do that better than me.
I'm trying to recommend a attitude that I have and use when building a computer so it's enjoyable. If it wasn't fun to build my system I have a shop in town that will build me a computer anyway I desire. It's fun if one allows it to be.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
03 Mar 2016   #57
ignatzatsonic

Microsoft Community Contributor Award Recipient

Windows 7 Home Premium SP1, 64-bit
 
 

86 Fahrenheit is about 30 Celsius.

There are numerous coolers that can keep temps at no more than the low 40s above ambient under a heavy load. That is---at 30 Celsius your temps would be no higher than the low to mid 70s. An i7 should run in the mid 70s indefinitely.

Look at the table in the last link I provided. The numbers in the chart represent "above ambient" on a hot 130 watt i7 CPU. I think that is what you have now---a 130 watt i7-920. A Skylake i7 should run cooler than that. I think the i7 Skylake TDP is 91 watts?

Numbers farther to the right represent "quieter". The 20 ~ 19 DB column is the noisiest, but 20 DB is still relatively quiet--not "noisy" by most standards. Very few of those numbers are above 42 or 43 degrees, especially in the upper half of the chart. The Noctua NH-U14S is a single tower cooler. It's 165mm tall, so your case would have to be wide enough to accommodate it. Going with a good dual tower cooler might give you 3 or 4 degrees better cooling AT A GIVEN NOISE LEVEL, and you have to decide if that trade-off is worthwhile.

You say "cooling optimal". What's that and how does it compare to "cooling sufficient"?

All you can do is buy a high quality cooler and then be willing to change it's fans to higher speed if necessary but only if necessary. You may well find that the included fans are sufficient.

Offhand, I think you are correct that it may not prove worthwhile to overclock a strong CPU. Nowadays, it's mostly a hobby. Getting an extra 200 mhz out of a CPU is going to have very little effect on how quickly a job completes. I don't hear you saying that you are paid on the basis of how quickly your CPU can do a job.

Your choice for memory is the least of your worries. No need to do anything crazy like super expensive or very tall heat sinks. Most guides will tell you to step up a bit above the 2133 DDR 4 standard to maybe 2666, but that the advantage above that speed diminishes rapidly. 2666 usually is only a few bucks more than 2133. Maybe $55 for 8 GB rather than $45.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
03 Mar 2016   #58
ThrashZone

Win-7-Pro64bit 7-H-Prem-64bit
 
 

Yea I switched from a CoolerMaster 212 evo 1-120mm plus one 120mm on the top/back
To a Noctua NH-D14 with 2-120mm actual PWM fans on both
The ambient temp was about the same
The biggest difference was stability which Noctua is staying pretty tough at 36c max I've noticed is 42c
The evo would rise quickly 38c to start and would vary but the highest I noticed was 55c.

That again was with the old Acer legacy bios smart fan controlling the fans just so I didn't have to test just how loud they were
I did not try the stock fans with the Noctua it came with 1-140mm and 1-120mm not PWM so they would of being going full bast all the time.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
03 Mar 2016   #59
Solarstarshines

Windows 10 Home Premium 64bit sp1
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by tgfyhre View Post
I was probably going to go with an Nvidia 960 from EVGA as it's one of the only cards that supports HDCP 2.2. I don't know anything about Pascal.

I would like to know more about the issues with coolers on the Skylake chip before I make any decisions on a cooler:

Intel Skylake CPUs bent and broken by some third-party coolers | Ars Technica

I wouldn't want to buy a cooler that would damage the CPU.
Get a Waterblock the Third party coolers that are breaking them are Air coolers

I'm using a Corsair H110i like a champ
My System SpecsSystem Spec
04 Mar 2016   #60
ThrashZone

Win-7-Pro64bit 7-H-Prem-64bit
 
 

Great thing about new stuff all of the unknown bugs and incompatibility
Looks like Intel just skimped a bit on quality looking at the example.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
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