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Windows 7: Really Important.

11 Aug 2011   #21
DeaconFrost

Windows 7 Ultimate x64 SP1
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by s0uLFir3 View Post
And just out of curiosity, umm, let's say the Hyper 212, does bring the temps back to normal, i.e., 35 - 40, will that bring the load down as well?
That is tough to say, as it still depends on other factors, such as how well the case is cooling the system overall, etc.

On my two systems with Hyper 212+ HSFs, I have seen a standard 20-25 degree (C) drop in idle and load temps. One system is using an i7-2600 and the other is using a Q8300. Both systems are cooled very well thanks to my Cooler Master HAF912 cases. I will try to find the comparison charts I made when I bought my first Hyper 212+ and ran it with an Intel Q9550. The cooling performance was so good, especially given the $20 price tag, I never really bothered to keep checking. MaximumPC and CPU magazine both have pretty much been recommending it since it's release (and then again when the + version came out), even now with the latest, hottest procs.

My only complaint is that you do need to pull the motherboard (unless you have enough space in a cutout underneath) to mount them. It takes a few minutes, but it isn't difficult. Still, it is something to consider if you were adding it to an existing system.


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11 Aug 2011   #22
Digerati

Windows 7 Profession 64-bit
 
 

Quote:
And just out of curiosity, umm, let's say the Hyper 212, does bring the temps back to normal, i.e., 35 - 40, will that bring the load down as well?
No. Reducing the load may lower temps because there is less work being done. But reducing the temps does not lower the load.
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11 Aug 2011   #23
DalekOverSeer

Windows 7 Ultimate
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Digerati View Post
Quote:
And just out of curiosity, umm, let's say the Hyper 212, does bring the temps back to normal, i.e., 35 - 40, will that bring the load down as well?
No. Reducing the load may lower temps because there is less work being done. But reducing the temps does not lower the load.

part of the load is because of the higher temps, but over 90% i would say is because of something running that you haven't tracked down yet, or conflicting hardware. the 212 is a good idea for getting the temps back down til you can ferret out what is causing the heavy load. from looking at what memory your programs use i would say it is hardware not playing nice with each other as stated above. as i stated before i have a far heavier load than that and my idle temps are 39 - 43c on a e8400. my highest temp under load is 60c.


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11 Aug 2011   #24
Dwarf

Windows 8.1 Pro RTM x64
 
 

It would be worth cleaning the fins on the heatsink with a can of compressed air (if you haven't already done so), and make sure that all fan blades are clean (this applies to case fans as well). Having done that, ensure that your case fans are correctly orientated (front & side as intake, rear & top as exhaust).

Fans should not be used to force air through a system, rather to assist the natural flow of air (which will be from the bottom front to the upper rear). If this balanced airflow is not achieved, then component overheating can result. Firstly, when you have too much air flowing in, with insufficient flowing out. This can lead to a build up of air pressure and heat inside the case. (Try holding your thumb over the end of an ordinary bicycle pump and operate it. You will soon find that the pump barrel can get quite hot.) Secondly, the opposite effect, with too much emphasis being placed on exhausting air. This leads to a partial vacuum within the case, with the result that cool air is not being drawn in at a fast enough rate to replace the warm/hot air that has been exhausted.
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11 Aug 2011   #25
Digerati

Windows 7 Profession 64-bit
 
 

Quote:
part of the load is because of the higher temps
Sorry but that is not true. Please explain why you think higher temps increases the load. Some links to some studies to support your position would be nice, but I don't believe you will find any. That's because the load on a CPU is determined by CPU and RAM utilization - that is, crunching numbers, not heat. You are suggesting that higher temps somehow causes more data to be crunched, more data to be processed, more tasks to be performed. Why would higher temps cause more tasks to be performed? It doesn't. The number of tasks the CPU must perform does not change just because the CPU is warmer, or cooler.

In fact, if you want to get down to pure physics - the Laws of which electronics must follow, increased heat increases current. When current goes up while the voltage stays constant, Ohm's Law dictates that resistance (i.e., the "load") must go down. Of course all that is controlled by the system clock and the regulator circuits to ensure those variables do NOT affect the timings, voltages, or loads.

The load on the cooling may increase, and the load on the regulator circuits may increase, thus causing the load on the PSU to increase - but the load on the CPU or RAM or graphics processor does not. Heat affects stability, not loads.

Quote:
Fans should not be used to force air through a system, rather to assist the natural flow of air (which will be from the bottom front to the upper rear)
Sorry, but that is not true either - except perhaps for Home Theater PCs that run silent with no fans ("passive" cooling) - but then HTPC cases are specially designed cases that are specifically designed to create, and take advantage of "convection" cooling.

If a PC did not need forced air, the bottoms and tops of our cases would be all mesh, or giant vents, and they are not. I agree completely that too much coming in can impact the flow, but you need forced air through the case to force the hot air out, and that is done by fans drawing cool air in, not by heat rising.

There are too many heat generating devices inside a PC case to rely on natural flow.

Better cases typically support front fans to purposely push cool air across hot drives. This is necessary because there are many crooks and crannies inside a case where the air can become stagnate, unless something is forcing it to move.

Quote:
Try holding your thumb over the end of an ordinary bicycle pump and operate it. You will soon find that the pump barrel can get quite hot.
I think that is an extreme example that is hard pressed to apply here. That heat is caused by compression at the nozzle by a "piston" and MANY pounds of force focusing a large amount of air through a tiny hole.

A good bicycle pump can produce 120PSI or more. Case fans are not designed to produce anything near that because case fans are designed to move large amounts of air through large, non-restrictive holes. Case fans are not designed to compress air.

That said, too many fans blowing air in and not enough fans drawing it out (or vents letting it out), can cause overpressure, but that would be a very unusual, and poorly planned setup.

But if cases only needed "assistance" to keep cool, a little 40mm blowhole (case top) fan would be sufficient to get the "natural flow" to move in the right direction, but I think we know that would not be enough to keep our chipsets, drives, and other heat sensitive devices cool enough.
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11 Aug 2011   #26
DeaconFrost

Windows 7 Ultimate x64 SP1
 
 

I haven't made it a habit of agreeing with everyone in this thread, but I'm going to in this case (pun intended). If you look at cooling and air flow diagrams for many high end cases, such as the ones Cooler Master provides, they suggest using the fans to assist the natural air flow within the cases. That is why you will see the intake fans in the front of the case normally in the bottom half and the top or rear fans used to exhaust hot air. You'll be working extra hard to try and reverse the natural flow of air (intake up top and venting on the bottom), but natural air flow isn't enough to cool any normal tower, unless it is using specific hardware. I'm not even a fan (pun intended) of many OEM cases that have one intake fan in the front and that's it. I want the air in my case moving, which is why I from the HAF-line of cases. HAF, meaning High Air Flow. On this page, you'll see my exact case, along with a diagram of how the case was designed to move the air in and out.

HAF 912 Advanced - Cooler Master

As for the other comments above....maybe I am reading it wrong, but higher temps don't increase the load on the processor. The cause and the effect are backwards. Higher loads on the processor increase the temps. I'm not sure if I am reading DalekOverSeer's comment properly, but loads cause higher temps...not the other way around.
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11 Aug 2011   #27
Digerati

Windows 7 Profession 64-bit
 
 

Quote:
loads cause higher temps...not the other way around.
Good. We are in agreement there.

As for fans, maybe I am not understanding - it happens. But first - no dispute that heat rises, thus case blowholes are very beneficial.

But what is the difference between,
1. Fans in front pulling cool air in and fans in back exhausting hot air out, thus forcing air to flow through the case, and
2. Fans in front pulling cool air in and fans in back exhausting hot air out, thus assisting air to flow through the case?

No matter how I look at, assisting and forcing, in this situation is the same thing. Sure, you don't want to force or assist hot air down. But front to back, or back to front doesn't matter. We just typically use front to back because PSUs typically mount in back (top or bottom) and exhaust hot air out the back. If the original ATX design put the PSU in front, it is likely back to front would be the normal configuration.

The point I am making, we need fans to push (and/or pull) MASSIVE amounts of cool air into and through the cases. And I mean MASSIVE - or else Antec and Cooler Master cases with multiple 200mm, 240mm and even 250mm case fans support would not be ever more popular.
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11 Aug 2011   #28
DeaconFrost

Windows 7 Ultimate x64 SP1
 
 

I think we are actually agreeing on both concepts. In the first respect, that would be like saying I am hot, so I'm going to start running/jogging/lifting weights/etc. In reality, the running or exercising is what's causing me to be hot. Probably a very poor analogy, but you get my point.

I don't think there's much of a difference in terms of forcing or assiting, although assisting almost gives the impression of a gentle breeze moving through the case, where forcing gives the impression of what a good case is actually doing. The reason I prefer the Cooler Master cases (but this goes for all good brands) is that I don't want idle air hanging out in my computer, increasing in temperature. I want that air moving in, warming up, and moving right out in a hurry.

Aside from moving massive amounts of air, the other reason I am happy to see such large fans is that they typically will move a lot of air more quietly than a smaller fan that would need to spin much faster. My HAF912s are nearly silent when they run, but when you put your hand near the exhaust fans, they are venting out quite a bit of air. I don't recall what brand it was about a decade ago...Lian Li, maybe, had a slogan that said Stagnant Air is Our Enemy.
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11 Aug 2011   #29
DalekOverSeer

Windows 7 Ultimate
 
 

sorry digerati but it is true. the hotter the components get the harder they have to work to do the same job. your logic is flawed. i may have miss word what i meant. that aside look at his load compared to mine and you will see why i say it might be a hardware conflict. barring a hardware conflict i would also say the airflow.




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11 Aug 2011   #30
DeaconFrost

Windows 7 Ultimate x64 SP1
 
 

I see your point somewhat, as a processor that's liquid cooled to -50 degrees C is technically more efficient than one running at 50 degrees C, but you are greatly overestimating that effect. A mere change in 20 C from a stock cooler to an aftermarket one isn't going to lessen the load or CPU time of the processor. In measurable temps in a typical computer, the heat is caused by the load on the CPU. That's why programs like Prime95 were created...to apply a load to the processors, to increase their temps and make sure your system was able to handle it.
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