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Windows 7: Startup programs not starting on boot

23 Aug 2012   #11
gregrocker

 

Why is my reply unfortunate? The Troubleshooting Steps for Windows 7 almost certainly contain the solution to the problem if one is thorough in completing them, besides which shows you the basic troubleshooting steps to solve any issue. That's unfortunate?

The issue is almost always tweaking by those who think they know best about an OS we've been working with daily since before its release, often cleaning up their messes. They want to get in arguments with the recognized top experts in the field while sitting at crippled or unbootable PC's.


My System SpecsSystem Spec
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23 Aug 2012   #12
Layback Bear

Windows 7 Pro. 64/SP-1
 
 

Unfortunate: I have never heard it put that way. Greg's methods have been used by thousands of happy users. It might not work for some but it does and has worked for thousands of happy computing people. You would be hard pressed to find someone who has helped more people repair their computers as much as Greg. When you do they are probably members right here on this Forum. If a member make a suggestion or recommendation and you don't care to do it, thats fine, don't do it. It's your computer. That does not make the suggestion or recommendation unfortunate. It makes it just something someone doesn't want to do on their computer. It's unfortunate I had to post this.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
24 Aug 2012   #13
MightyDrake

Win 7 64 Pro SP1
 
 

Off topic of the thread, but I hope Greg doesn't mind a little feedback on his presentation.

First, it's good to hear that he's generally active and helpful on the board. And, I certainly understand that the vast majority of the time the answer lies in, "Read the FAQ." And saying that for the thousandth time can get stale.

And, I understand that probably a majority of new users to this board have systems encrusted with programs that don't need to run at startup and/or the user actually doesn't want at all.

But, what came across in our first few exchanges can best be summarized as, "Read the FAQ. But, if you're putting things in your Startup folder then you're probably screwing up all kinds of things." The unstated implication seemed to be that I couldn't expect much help if I insisted on doing that.

I'm sure it was pretty obvious that my initial reaction to those first few messages was pretty strongly negative. It really felt like I was being attacked for allowing programs to start with Windows. I hope I kept my cool. I strive to be civil.

I was especially surprised to be treated like that when my original post should have made it pretty clear that I wasn't the common, "It don't work." tech support case. I had spent some time researching and had included results for every suggestion I had found thus far. Many of which turned out to be in your own FAQ.

So, if you don't mind a suggestion, you might try to couch your language more along the lines of, "Here's the FAQ for your Windows issue. But, since the Startup folder currently has your attention, it might be a good time to look at what programs are being started there. You may find that you don't need any of them starting with Windows." Maybe with a link to a page that spells out the difference between installing a program vs allowing one to start up with Windows.

I think that would be more likely to lead the people who need it toward making good choices. And it might be less likely to put someone like me on the defensive, where I feel I have to justify my choices before I can get any help.

And now, back to our regularly scheduled programming.

The disk diagnostic finished without error. I just downloaded Process Monitor and I'm going to figure out how to use that during boot.

Speaking of boot, I did forget to mention in my original post that I had enabled boot logging from the F8 menu. Nothing stood out there. There were a few things that it said didn't load, but apparently that's common. None looked like they applied to my situation.

wzeallor, yes, I do have a video card. An ATI Radeon 5850 or 5870, I can never remember which. I know that video drivers used to be notorious for causing seemingly-unrelated issues. Sound drivers, too. I did not install a new driver when the symptom showed up. I think the last time I updated the video driver was 6-12 months ago. If there were any correlation in time then I'd be more likely to consider that as a suspect.

What prompted you to ask?

Drake
My System SpecsSystem Spec
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25 Aug 2012   #14
MightyDrake

Win 7 64 Pro SP1
 
 

Managed to get Process Monitor to run after a couple of attempts. It's quite a flood of information. A needle-in-a-haystack situation. I can search and filter for "startup." I've found where it lists the programs that are in my Startup folder. I have not found anything near that which jumps out at me and says, "I'm the flag that decides to bypass the Startup folder."

I've done a net search and brought up the first eight or ten pages. I haven't really dug into them, yet.

Does anyone have any suggestions on what to look for?

Drake
My System SpecsSystem Spec
25 Aug 2012   #15
wzeallor

Windows 7 Home Premium x64
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by MightyDrake View Post
wzeallor, yes, I do have a video card. An ATI Radeon 5850 or 5870, I can never remember which. I know that video drivers used to be notorious for causing seemingly-unrelated issues. Sound drivers, too. I did not install a new driver when the symptom showed up. I think the last time I updated the video driver was 6-12 months ago. If there were any correlation in time then I'd be more likely to consider that as a suspect.

What prompted you to ask?

Drake
I have an ATI Radeon card too. A few driver versions ago, it randomly deactivated the mouse (or keyboard) at startup before login. It was fixed by the subsequent update. So, it's not improbable that the video card driver is interfering with a recent system update.

The driver was recently updated and I've not experienced the issue at hand since updating. But, the issue occurs randomly so, I can't be sure its fixed and it's not listed by AMD on the resolved issue list.

Updating the video card is a step in gregrocker's FAQ. So the comment was not directed towards the gregrocker's content but his insistence that an XP-era solution to malware and system sluggishness is relevant to a Windows 7 x64 user whose well written topic post indicates that he wants the startup programs to load.

FYI, here are some other topics about the issue:It seems the issue occurs in x64 systems and that no one has a permanent solution.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
25 Aug 2012   #16
gregrocker

 

Not only is running a completely Clean Boot not old school, it was considered radical when I first starting advising it here three years ago.

This is because previously in XP the MS Services were not hidden so there was a tedious process involved with a long list of Startups that we were advised to keep. Since these were hidden in Win7, it made sense for best performance to disable them all except AV as a rule, to avoid the freeloaders which creep in to leech resources and spy on us.

We know this is a major concern since our SevenForums tutorial Startup Programs - Change has over 2.5 million views in three years.

Nevertheless I braced myself for repercussions for advising in my tutorials and countless posts to disable all startup programs except AV and gadgets/stickies as a baseline - realizing that everyone would have their exceptions but that zero tolerance set the tightest standard.

After three years I can report that as radical as the idea was at the time there has not been a single complaint resulting from following this advice.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
25 Aug 2012   #17
MightyDrake

Win 7 64 Pro SP1
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by gregrocker View Post
... it made sense for best performance to disable them all except AV as a rule, to avoid the freeloaders which creep in to leech resources and spy on us.
I think I prefer the terms spyware or malware, depending on the behavior. Freeloader implies to me a lazy kid. These aren't put together by lazy kids. They're jerks who don't care how much their actions screw with other people, as long as they're making money.

For the vast majority of users, I agree with you wholeheartedly about minimizing what they put on their systems. But, for the most part the malware doesn't sneak in. It was there all along and people didn't put for the effort to find out ahead of time. Either by searching themselves or checking with someone reliable for advice.

On a philosophical note, I have little tolerance for zero tolerance. I think it leads to only the most superficial analysis. Which, by another name, might be called stereotyping. It's basically people turning off their brain before they've thought things through or dug for what's really going on. Following rules because they're rules, not because they make sense.

So, my whole point is to maybe back off just a little from all-but-attacking people for having programs that need to run on startup. By all means, try to lead them or point them in the right direction. If they insist on keeping their possibly-tainted programs then go ahead and make them do the work of ruling them out as an issue. Maybe do a search on "program name malware" and post a link to the search to show them how awful the spyware attached to it is.

But I recommend that you don't attack them on sight and subtly threaten to withhold assistance.

As an FYI on my current issue, I ran CCleaner last night, and after a little research, nothing jumped out as a problem.

Drake
My System SpecsSystem Spec
25 Aug 2012   #18
MightyDrake

Win 7 64 Pro SP1
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by wzeallor View Post
Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by MightyDrake View Post
wzeallor, yes, I do have a video card. An ATI Radeon 5850 or 5870, I can never remember which. I know that video drivers used to be notorious for causing seemingly-unrelated issues. Sound drivers, too. I did not install a new driver when the symptom showed up. I think the last time I updated the video driver was 6-12 months ago. If there were any correlation in time then I'd be more likely to consider that as a suspect.

What prompted you to ask?

Drake
I have an ATI Radeon card too. A few driver versions ago, it randomly deactivated the mouse (or keyboard) at startup before login. It was fixed by the subsequent update. So, it's not improbable that the video card driver is interfering with a recent system update.

The driver was recently updated and I've not experienced the issue at hand since updating. But, the issue occurs randomly so, I can't be sure its fixed and it's not listed by AMD on the resolved issue list.

Updating the video card is a step in gregrocker's FAQ. So the comment was not directed towards the gregrocker's content but his insistence that an XP-era solution to malware and system sluggishness is relevant to a Windows 7 x64 user whose well written topic post indicates that he wants the startup programs to load.

FYI, here are some other topics about the issue:It seems the issue occurs in x64 systems and that no one has a permanent solution.
Hmm. I hadn't thought through about a Windows update bringing out a bug in an existing driver. The video driver certainly is loaded early in the boot process. But, that still is a very strange interaction in today's protected memory environment.

I'm about to walk out the door. But I'll give that some more thought tomorrow.

Those links to missing system tray icons doesn't really match my situation. The few links I followed are running programs and for some reason Windows is ignoring their request to display the icons. Mine is programs not being run at all.

Drake
My System SpecsSystem Spec
25 Aug 2012   #19
gregrocker

 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by MightyDrake View Post
Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by gregrocker View Post
... it made sense for best performance to disable them all except AV as a rule, to avoid the freeloaders which creep in to leech resources and spy on us.
I think I prefer the terms spyware or malware, depending on the behavior. Freeloader implies to me a lazy kid. These aren't put together by lazy kids. They're jerks who don't care how much their actions screw with other people, as long as they're making money.
No I was not referring to Malware here, but updaters like Google which is pernicious spyware that spies on your habits and pastes ads everywhere you go, and nearly every other item you allow to start up with your PC. The freeware especially make their money selling the data they collect from spying on you, and all find it's big business.. So almost all do it, even software pretending to monitor HD condition.

Think of it like opening a port to every single listing in the Startup list, to access your PC to do as much or as little as they like. Why do this when you can wait to click on the program to run it and keep for yourself your RAM/CPU, connection and privacy?
My System SpecsSystem Spec
25 Aug 2012   #20
wzeallor

Windows 7 Home Premium x64
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by MightyDrake View Post
Those links to missing system tray icons doesn't really match my situation. The few links I followed are running programs and for some reason Windows is ignoring their request to display the icons. Mine is programs not being run at all.

Drake
I have no way of knowing but I think they're reporting the same issue. They're just reporting the most obvious symptom. Now if we could only figure out the cause.
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 Startup programs not starting on boot




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