If your PC picks up a virus, whose fault is it?

Here is a an article by Ed Bott about Windows PC infections.

Summary: Want to avoid being attacked by viruses and other malware? Two recent studies reveal the secret: regular patching. A fully patched system with a firewall enabled offers almost complete protection against drive-by attacks and outside intruders.

Click to expand...

Here is the article link:
If your PC picks up a virus, whose fault is it? | ZDNet

I agree with some of that but not entirely. Patching is limited to what the software manufacturers have available for installation. If there's no patch to address an issue, what is there for a user to do other than switching products?

Many types of malware can get on a PC due to how it has many vectors to approach the OS without involving the UAC and DEP, which is a problem with current Windows products. Assuming the problem is OS related, a user can't fix a hole Microsoft has no solution for.

The same goes for browsers, drive-by attacks are based on the nature of how it intends on getting onto your machine. Even Mac users aren't immune to Trojans, which if engineered properly can fool the user to do something to allow malware to get onto their machines. In this situation my argument is the risk is primarily involving the user being either careless or simply lacking skills in managing/mitigating risky computing practices. The user will always be the biggest threat on any machine.

Viruses as we know it do have a problem with how it's controlled through AV software. An AV product can't detect something it doesn't "know", even Heuristics aren't a 100% solution as you start running into other problems associated with false positives.

This is why I update as soon as they're available.

The test results seem fairly startling though.

They would seem to indicate that you are fairly safe, if:

• You keep your OS patched.
• Keep your firewall up (even the default Windows one).
• You don't install Adobe software or Java.

37 percent of users browsing the Web with insecure Java versions
37 percent of users browsing the Web with insecure Java versions | ZDNet

Everything else (AM and AV software) is just protects you against things, you deliberately download.

It seems that Internet "Drive-bys" are just as likely to happen to you as real ones.

lehnerus2000 said:

The test results seem fairly startling though.

They would seem to indicate that you are fairly safe, if:

• You keep your OS patched.
• Keep your firewall up (even the default Windows one).
• You don't install Adobe software or Java.

37 percent of users browsing the Web with insecure Java versions
37 percent of users browsing the Web with insecure Java versions | ZDNet

Everything else (AM and AV software) is just protects you against things, you deliberately download.

It seems that Internet "Drive-bys" are just as likely to happen to you as real ones.

Click to expand...

I'm another who doesn't have Adobe, using Foxit instead, and who doesn't have Java installed - can only think of a few sites that I can't access and there are usually alternatives. Apart from the security aspect it also seemed to slow my browsing.

I always install the latest OS updates and same for Anti-Virus (NIS) but perhaps SpywareBlaster also helps. I get very few pop-ups and so far all malware has been caught before any kind of infection. I used much the same on my XP system for more than a decade and even though I run as administrator (and with Win 7 with UAC disabled) have never had an infection. Perhaps one of the reasons is that if I want some free software I am careful as to where I download it and try to review it carefully beforehand. I also don't use P2P or download questionable stuff from Newsgroups and never open attachments from email sources I do not know. I do make images of the OS regularly and rely on these to recover from most problems - which they have done successfully for almost every problem I have ever had.

I would not recommend that others run as administrator or with UAC disabled as I do understand the risks but for me the convenience just has more benefits.

lehnerus2000 said:

The test results seem fairly startling though.

They would seem to indicate that you are fairly safe, if:

• You keep your OS patched.
• Keep your firewall up (even the default Windows one).
• You don't install Adobe software or Java.

37 percent of users browsing the Web with insecure Java versions
37 percent of users browsing the Web with insecure Java versions | ZDNet

Everything else (AM and AV software) is just protects you against things, you deliberately download.

It seems that Internet "Drive-bys" are just as likely to happen to you as real ones.

Click to expand...

Hi there
I see you have a particular "Grudge" against adobe.

Adobe Photoshop (CS5 / CS5.5) is EXTENSIVELY used by Professional Photographers almost exclusively compared to any other digital imaging program and most of them NEVER have problems with computer Viruses.

Infected computers are IMO 100% the responsibility of the USER -- it's almost IMPOSSIBLE to get a virus doing "Normal" online activities and taking reasonable care.

I've used computers probably since before a lot of members on this Forum were even born and NEVER had an attack.

Most AV software doesn't really defend against really insidious attacks such as root-kits, drive by real time infections, super user type privileges etc etc and running a scan AFTER the fact won't really tell you much - it will say your computer might be infected -- can't tell you of course WHEN and what damage has been done in the meantime -- so would you use an INFECTED COMPUTER to "UN INFECT" itself via the installed AV software which might itself have been compromised.

However If I WERE to get my computer infected I WOULD NOT TRUST ANY AV SOFTWARE WHATSOEVER to "clean it".

I would either restore the OS from a known clean image or re-install the system.

I always take a backup before installing any software - no matter how trivial the software is -- for other test stuff I'll even try it on a Virtual machine before loading it on to a physical running computer.

Actually using Virtual Machines for surfing the net is a good idea anyway since if it Does get infected just delete it and fire up another one.

A proper file wall, sensible computer usage and decent Net surfing habits would keep 99% of your average computer users Virus Free.

BTW one of the posters Statistics on this thread doesn't stack up in reality -- since if 37% of people are using insecure browsers / java versions - then how come the percentage of people whose computers who get infected is definitely lower by a CONSIDERABLE MARGIN.


A lot of this type of stuff is put out by AV software companies who must realize now that apart from say contracts for keeping corporate networks safe their days are surely numbered -- MSE - Free from Microsoft is as good (or as bad depending on your viewpoint) as any of them out there.

It does a reasonable job -- and remember those who look at "Statistics" for effectiveness of AV software should remember by the time those are published they are incredibly out of date too.

Cheers
jimbo

Hi jimbo

Although you were replying to lehnerus I certainly don't have a grudge against Adobe as they make some excellent software but Adobe Reader (probably as the most used pdf reader) is highly targeted by malware and I certainly exoerienced this even though I had it locked down so nothing happened - I just got fed-up of these attacks. I think you must browse very cautiously not to experience any attacks. Perhaps the answer is just not to use the most popular software although this too has its own problems.

pincushion said:

Hi jimbo

Although you were replying to lehnerus I certainly don't have a grudge against Adobe as they make some excellent software but Adobe Reader (probably as the most used pdf reader) is highly targeted by malware and I certainly exoerienced this even though I had it locked down so nothing happened - I just got fed-up of these attacks. I think you must browse very cautiously not to experience any attacks. Perhaps the answer is just not to use the most popular software although this too has its own problems.

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Let's not forget about Adobe Flash, either. My work computer is still using version 10.1.102.64 while the latest offered by Adobe is 11.0.1.152. My IT department has a "so what" attitude.

Photoshop is OK

jimbo45 said:

Adobe Photoshop (CS5 / CS5.5) is EXTENSIVELY used by Professional Photographers almost exclusively compared to any other digital imaging program and most of them NEVER have problems with computer Viruses.

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Photoshop seems to be their best product (and it's actually useful).
I've done a Photoshop course, but since I can't afford to buy it, I use GIMP.
I can't recall ever seeing Photoshop listed as a security risk.

Reader is a ridiculously bloated malware magnet.
At least there are alternatives to Reader, unlike that god awful "CPU-bricking" Flash.

The worst thing about Flash is, idiots use it for everything on the Internet.
In Yahoo! Mail, I can't attach a file to an email, UNLESS I run Flash.
The "Attach" button is a Flash Object!

Despite what seems like fortnightly updates, the thing is still a menace to computer users everywhere (not just Windows users).

I've always loathed Java (I only run it in VMs).
I need it for Cisco Packet Tracer.

jimbo45 said:

Most AV software doesn't really defend against really insidious attacks such as root-kits, drive by real time infections, super user type privileges etc etc and running a scan AFTER the fact won't really tell you much - it will say your computer might be infected -- can't tell you of course WHEN and what damage has been done in the meantime -- so would you use an INFECTED COMPUTER to "UN INFECT" itself via the installed AV software which might itself have been compromised.

Click to expand...

I can't recall the original article mentioning the effectiveness of AV software.
It seemed to be saying, that if your MS OS is up-to-date with its patches and you are running a firewall you are fairly safe.

jimbo45 said:

I always take a backup before installing any software - no matter how trivial the software is -- for other test stuff I'll even try it on a Virtual machine before loading it on to a physical running computer.

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I often install software in a VM (if I am suspicious of it).
I don't always create a backup image for installs.

I do make backup images (3xOS, Programs & user files) every month before I apply updates.
That means in the worst case, I lose a couple of weeks of installs (I don't install that much anyway).

On another site, I proposed that Windows should have a built-in VM (to mitigate malware attacks).
When you first install a program, it is actually installed there.

• The VM has monitoring tools and testing routines (HDD, Network & System).
• If the program does nothing suspicious when it is run/tested, Windows could inform you.
• It would then offer to transfer the program to the "real" machine.

jimbo45 said:

BTW one of the posters Statistics on this thread doesn't stack up in reality -- since if 37% of people are using insecure browsers / java versions - then how come the percentage of people whose computers who get infected is definitely lower by a CONSIDERABLE MARGIN.

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Perhaps not everyone:

• Clicks on every ad they see.
• Opens every bit of spam that they receive.
• Leaves their PC connected to the Internet (browser open) 24/7.

In the article, one machine got hit after ~180 days, but the mean was ~1 year.
You seem to be implying that they all should have fallen on the same day.

Why didn't every unpatched PC, get hit by the Conficker Worm on the same day?

jimbo45 said:

A lot of this type of stuff is put out by AV software companies who must realize now that apart from say contracts for keeping corporate networks safe their days are surely numbered ...

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Agreed.
I often see articles from Symantec (and others) trying to induce panic.

I don't think that this article was released by an AV company.
I haven't researched the conference sponsors though.

I think that you must have misinterpreted my comments on AM and AV programs.

No virus here.

I think i must be very lucky.

Iv read for years so many posts,news,articles about virus,trojans.....for very bad things that damage computers etc.

I never had any problem with any kind of virus.

Nothing,never!

lehnerus2000 says "The worst thing about Flash is, idiots use it for everything on the Internet."
I think you need to chill. Using a tool (Flash or otherwise) does not make anyone an idiot.

"I've always loathed Java"
Loathing? Is that the basis of your advice?

"It's almost IMPOSSIBLE to get a virus doing "Normal" online activities and taking reasonable care."
Just plain silly. It's not impossible, nor even "almost" impossible. Viruses don't carry posters saying "I'm a virus, please allow me to infect your computer!" Since most people aren't trained compu-geeks (nor do most people wish to become so), virus infections are FAR from impossible.

And, exactly what is the difference between "normal" online activity and non-normal?

"[Adobe] Reader is a ridiculously bloated malware magnet."
Malware magnet? Perhaps. But does "ridiculously bloated" form the basis of your advice? Would Adobe Reader be targeted less often if it were not "bloated"? (No ... it's targeted because it's so frequently used on many (most?) computers.)

I did not advise you to do anything

lhorwinkle said:

lehnerus2000 says "The worst thing about Flash is, idiots use it for everything on the Internet."
I think you need to chill. Using a tool (Flash or otherwise) does not make anyone an idiot.

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Using the wrong tool does.
You don't use a Stilson wrench on a PC case.

Why use Flash:

• To do what a gif can do?
• To do what html can do?
• for a static (non-animated) button?

I'll put it another way.
Why use a 20mm auto-cannon to hunt rabbits, when an ordinary rifle wil do the job and it's less risky?

lhorwinkle said:

"I've always loathed Java"
Loathing? Is that the basis of your advice?

Click to expand...

I posted a link to an article.
37 percent of users browsing the Web with insecure Java versions | ZDNet

The article clearly states that Java is a threat to your PC security.
Since I refuse to install Java, Java exploits have no effect on me.

I did not advise you to do anything (I stated my opinion).

If you choose to take any action that is entirely up to you.

lhorwinkle said:

"[Adobe] Reader is a ridiculously bloated malware magnet."
Malware magnet? Perhaps. But does "ridiculously bloated" form the basis of your advice? Would Adobe Reader be targeted less often if it were not "bloated"? (No ... it's targeted because it's so frequently used on many (most?) computers.)

Click to expand...

I take you've never heard of a concept called "attack surface".
The more functions/processes that are running the more likely you are to be attacked/exploited.

It would be targeted less, because there would be less to target.
If Adobe reader only read PDFs and did not execute js routines, It would be IMPOSSIBLE for it to execute js malware (no ifs, no buts).

I posted a link to an article.
37 percent of users browsing the Web with insecure Java versions | ZDNet

The article clearly states that Flash and Reader are threats to your PC security.
Since I refuse to install Reader, Reader exploits have no effect on me.
Since Flash is used everywhere (even where it isn't needed) I have to have it installed and as a result my PC is exposed to threats, because of Adobe's sloppy coding.

I did not advise you to do anything (I stated my opinion).

If you choose to take any action that is entirely up to you.

Windows, Adobe, I.E. are targeted for one reason; their are more people using them than other products. The people who wright virus want to get the biggest bang for their money and time. You don't need to be a technician to have and use MSE and built in firewall. In most cases keeping them up dated is very simple. For those that don't want to learn the basics in internet security their will be no help. You shouldn't drive a car if you don't take the time to learn the basics on how to drive a car. I do have suggestion for things like Jave, Adobe; they should make it easier for people to check if updates are needed. Something like updating Windows. IMHO most people don't even know if they have Jave. I know people that won't even remove cookies for fear of disabling their computer and all the explaining doesn't do any good. It's kind of like the Pillsbury Boy, never seen a cookie he didn't like. These same kind of people like popups because they don't want to miss out on anything. That's why I suggest when we get a new person here we treat them with respect and answer question as simple as possible so they will learn that they can learn the basics of security for a computer. Then we got them hooked, they will be back. A virus is like a burglar they are looking for easy pickings. I the case of a burglar finding your back door open and finding nothing of value will leave but a virus will hang around until you kick it out.

One of the best ways to avoid outdated software is to use a product like "Secunia" to monitor your installed software for updates and obsolecence. While Secunia cannot monitor all software products, I find that it does a very good job with most of the software that I have installed and if you are so inclined you can even set a lot of the products to "auto update". I have been extreamly pleased with this product since I was introduced to it on Vista forums a few years ago and highly recommend it for the average PC user who does not take a proactive approach to keeping their software updated.

Secunia: Secunia - The Leading Provider of Vulnerability Management and Vulnerability Intelligence Solutions

Layback Bear said:

Windows, Adobe, I.E. are targeted for one reason; their are more people using them than other products. The people who wright virus want to get the biggest bang for their money and time. You don't need to be a technician to have and use MSE and built in firewall. In most cases keeping them up dated is very simple. For those that don't want to learn the basics in internet security their will be no help. You shouldn't drive a car if you don't take the time to learn the basics on how to drive a car. I do have suggestion for things like Jave, Adobe; they should make it easier for people to check if updates are needed. Something like updating Windows. IMHO most people don't even know if they have Java. I know people that won't even remove cookies for fear of disabling their computer and all the explaining doesn't do any good. It's kind of like the Pillsbury Boy, never seen a cookie he didn't like. These same kind of people like popups because they don't want to miss out on anything. That's why I suggest when we get a new person here we treat them with respect and answer question as simple as possible so they will learn that they can learn the basics of security for a computer. Then we got them hooked, they will be back. A virus is like a burglar they are looking for easy pickings. I the case of a burglar finding your back door open and finding nothing of value will leave but a virus will hang around until you kick it out.

Click to expand...

I agree!!

Not the only reason

Layback Bear said:

Windows, Adobe, I.E. are targeted for one reason; their are more people using them than other products. The people who wright virus want to get the biggest bang for their money and time.

Click to expand...

That is true (target rich environment) but it is not the only reason.

Every Windows PC has Notepad & Calculator, but not every PC has Adobe Reader.
How many Notepad and/or Calculator exploits have you heard of?
Why is there a difference in the number of exploits between them and Adobe Reader?

A PDF reader that only reads PDFs should be as "rock solid" as Notepad apparently is.

IMO, the problem with Adobe Reader is that Adobe have kept adding more features, without fully testing them and/or understanding how they interact with other software.
I suspect that this is also true for Flash and Java.

According to various articles (AV companies, MS and security researchers) that I have read, the biggest malware vectors, over the last few years, have been (in no particular order) Adobe Flash, Adobe Reader and Java.

"Attack Surface" is a simple, logical concept.
The more complex something is, the more ways it can fail and the harder it is to debug.
A building with hundreds of doors and windows is more difficult to secure, than a building with no windows and a single door.

Layback Bear said:

You don't need to be a technician to have and use MSE and built in firewall. In most cases keeping them up dated is very simple. For those that don't want to learn the basics in internet security their will be no help.

Click to expand...

Agreed.

The point of the original article was that keeping up-to-date with patches and running a firewall provides the majority of your security.

I am not saying (and didn't say) that AM and AV programs are worthless.
Most AV programs are reasonably simple to use and keep updated.

Layback Bear said:

I do have suggestion for things like Jave, Adobe; they should make it easier for people to check if updates are needed. Something like updating Windows.

Click to expand...

Agreed.

IMO, Adobe and Java suffer from the same thing that MS has always been accused of.
Instead of fixing the code, they just add more features.

Layback Bear said:

I know people that won't even remove cookies for fear of disabling their computer and all the explaining doesn't do any good. It's kind of like the Pillsbury Boy, never seen a cookie he didn't like.

Click to expand...

In the past, I have visited websites that have big "dummy spits", if you have deleted their cookies (from a previous visit).
I generally don't bother to go back, to such sites, after that.

Layback Bear said:

That's why I suggest when we get a new person here we treat them with respect and answer question as simple as possible so they will learn that they can learn the basics of security for a computer. Then we got them hooked, they will be back.

Click to expand...

Agreed.

However, people should actually read what has been posted and ask questions if they don't understand.

since reading a few comment througout the forums, I don't use Adobe Reader and have uninstalled Java. Java seems to be an open door to one's computer for criminals and PDF's can be tainted with hidden, malicious code. I use Foxit Reader for PDF readins and it is supposed to keep bad code at bay, and is a lot smaller program.

I have Adobe Photoshop though, but I can disable its ability to "phone home".

Adobe Updater - tried and failed

Britton30 said:

since reading a few comment througout the forums, I don't use Adobe Reader and have uninstalled Java. Java seems to be an open door to one's computer for criminals and PDF's can be tainted with hidden, malicious code. I use Foxit Reader for PDF readins and it is supposed to keep bad code at bay, and is a lot smaller program.

I have Adobe Photoshop though, but I can disable its ability to "phone home".

Click to expand...

Adobe just tried to update Flash on my PC and it failed (of course).
Even though the updater was the only thing running, it claimed that something was using Flash and so it "spat the dummy".
Useless "piece of junk".

The Adobe DLM was also a menace (I'm not sure if it still is).

I haven't heard about any problems with Photoshop.

I only run Java in a virtual Windows machine.

I also use Foxit PDF Reader.
They used to have js enabled by default (just like Adobe) but after the scare last year (maybe it was 2009) the default is, js off.

Nice Dr Doom avatar.

Thanks, Doom works for Adobe, mwhahaaa.

years ago, I switched to free AV systems and never looked back. You need to do three things:

1) Keep NO important numbers or passwords anywhere on your computer. The very best hackers can get your Social Security Number, credit card, ban account numbers, etc.
2) Run one AV all the time and have it set for automatic updates.
3) Have a few other free AVs and run them once every couple of weeks.