SSD - To Defrag or not to Defrag

Following this thread and my own obsession with keeping a system drive tidy, I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with pros/cons of doing a defrag on SSD's. Plenty of sources claim this will kill the drive, shorten its life or even adversely affect performance. What's the verdict?

Doesn't matter where on the SSD a file is, it still takes the same amount of time to retrive that file no matter where it is on the SSD, so why would you want to defrag and reduce the life of your SSD??

Hi Captain Zero, read this article and see if it will help.
http://www.sevenforums.com/news/6203-think-you-know-ssds-think-again.html?highlight=ssds
Thanks to johngalt

SSD drives do not have to access files from platters hence there is no need to defrag them. From articles that I have read, they all state that if you defrag an SSD drive you will shorten the life span of it.

I use Diskeeper09 to defrag my drives (frankly, its the best program I have used) and they have Hyperfast (SSD optimizer ) as an add on offer to it. I dont own an SSD yet, but have read some material on SSD optimization on their site (IIRC there is a whitepaper on it). I suppose I cant post a link in here, you could check it out.

I have 1Tb hard disk, I have used about 50Gb of space. I would like to partition de disk, but trying to shrink it, it does not allow me to reduce it to 200Gb, it seems that some files are storage in the middle of the disk and does not allow me to reduce it less than 400Gb, although there is only 50Gb used.

After defrag the disk, I have the same problem. It seems that defrag does not regroup the files.

Is there any solution? Perhaps using another defrag tool? Does any one knows a good freware one?

Thanks in advance.

Some system files can't be moved. Maybe that's the problem.
Try using another defrag tool which shows you the graph where the files are on the disk.

Defrag

Defrag is a catch 22. If you have plenty of space on your hard drive, most files will be written in contiguous space. Plus all of your frequently used system files were written in contiguous space when the OS install occured and need not be 'defragged'.

If you have limited space, then defragging will only temporarily give you relief from fragmentation and very soon files will begin to be written in non contiguous space.

The biggest problem with defrag is if you have power failure (or any other kind of failure for that matter) you have lost your drive. This is much too risky in my opinion and you are better of to get a bigger hard drive.

JeremyJukes said:

The biggest problem with defrag is if you have power failure (or any other kind of failure for that matter) you have lost your drive. This is much too risky in my opinion and you are better of to get a bigger hard drive.

Click to expand...

thats not true, windows copies the data first, then changes pointers to the data.

Can't partition a partition

GEBLIN QUOTE " I have 1Tb hard disk, I have used about 50Gb of space. I would like to partition de disk, but trying to shrink it, it does not allow me to reduce it to 200Gb, it seems that some files are storage in the middle of the disk and does not allow me to reduce it less than 400Gb, although there is only 50Gb used.

After defrag the disk, I have the same problem. It seems that defrag does not regroup the files.

Is there any solution? Perhaps using another defrag tool? Does any one knows a good freware one?

Thanks in advance "

Yo Geblin, sounds like to me your C:\ drive (actually a partition) has allocated (taking up) the full 1TB of the drive... if this is the case then the C:\ has already allocated your full TB. Defraging will not solve this! You can't partition your drive any further unless you delete the C:\ partition (in windows 7 setup) and loose what ever is on it... Then re-install windows you have to choose "custom" then you can go in and create a new 2 new partitions. one for C:\ and one for D:\ . Each partition you create will ask you to determine the size. Choose 500gb for each or make 3 at 335each or 4 at 250 each... and so on and so forth.... get it ? ...

In short you can't partition a partition and since your C:\ drive (partition) is already taking up the full 1TB drive you have to delete that partition (and loose all your data unless you put it on another drive or removable media) and recreate it at 500gb then create a second partition at 500Gb (actually it will be more like 485 or 468 or 436 depending on if your drive has a 16mb, 32mb or 64mb cahce (pleas tell me you didn't buy a 8mb cache 1tb HD .. if you did sell your computer now and just buy an xbox lolz)

HOW TO PARTION AND SETUP WINDOWS 7 CORRECTLY READ BELOW

Yea, sorry bro.. you're in for some work if you want to copy all your data to another source.. delete the C:\partition in windows 7 CUSTOM OPTION setup, recreate 2 new partitions one C and one D at 500gb each or any additional partitions you want as long as all partitions combined do not exceed 1TB minus the size of your cache and the size of the windows restore partition. Then re-install windows and re-update, then IF YOU WANT TO DO IT PROPERLY, move all your documents and keep sakes (from the other drive, DVD, CD Memory stick etc) to the 2nd partition on the primary drive. Next go to C:\users and individually and seperately right click all the icons one at a time for my documents, pictures etc... For each one, select "move target" and select the new location on the D:\ partition. If you do it that way, any time you save something to My Documents, pictures etc, it will save on the D:\ partition and NOT in the defualt Windows location on NOT back on the C:\ drive which would put you right back at the same spot and make your partitioning effort worthless. Also, moving the target folder way will also update the library links in Windows Explore in folder view on the left side...

Yeah the whole point of partitioning is to keep your windows install (Defaulted to C:\drive) on a seperate partition from your data (usually defaulted D:\ drive) that way if windows ever gets hosed, you can just wipe the partition and re-install without loosing your data. Unless of course a catostrophic drive failure... then you're hosed.

LOTS OF WORK! BUT, the good news is, if you screw up the windows partition say from a corruption or an RTM with Remove.wat on it (hint hint not me wink wink ) that got sniffed out, you can just delete the format the C:\ partition and re-install windows without touching your data this time.
Good luck nooblet have fun.

I am sorry, I don't know what all of this discussion is about. SSDs do not need and should not be defragmented. Defragmentation is only beneficial for serial accessed devices like hard disks. SSDs are random access devices and you will see no benefit. In fact, defragmenting an SSD will be detrimental to its lifetime. It results in a huge amount of erase cycles which will shorten the lifetime of NAND chips in the device.

The discussion is because GBelin thought DEfraging would solve his problems with Partitioning a C:\ drive further but it won't because his C:\ partition was taking the full drive space. I was trying to explain to him how to delete his old partition and create a new... he was confussed thinking defrag would move files so he could further partition a C:\ drive but no matter how many files he moves you can't further partition a partition. Had nothing to do with SSD but was clarrifying partitioning for GBelin because he was confused about partitioning.

DaGuru said:

The discussion is because GBelin thought DEfraging would solve his problems with Partitioning a C:\ drive further but it won't because his C:\ partition was taking the full drive space. I was trying to explain to him how to delete his old partition and create a new... he was confussed thinking defrag would move files so he could further partition a C:\ drive but no matter how many files he moves you can't further partition a partition. Had nothing to do with SSD but was clarrifying partitioning for GBelin because he was confused about partitioning.

Click to expand...

His/her post was more than 2 years ago. Not very likely he/she will read your response. And his/her last activity on ths Forum was 3/16/11.

Windows 7 Forums - View Profile: gbelin

But maybe your response will help someone else.

I also saw that it was over 2 years after post but only after I submitted it already oops. I still thought the info might help someone else out.

Ps... I am also searching this post for info about SSD. The only thing that scares me/confuses me a bit is the diskpart.exe some suggest to run. I found a post with scripted cmds for aligning in 1024kb sectors but not sure if 1024kb is the most optimal/fastest sector sizes I should choose for a SATA III 60GB ADATA s511 drive. I am 9+ years as A+, Dell Cert and NET+ but first SSD attempt So questions are ...

1. is Aligning the drive properly with Diskpart.exe absolutely necessary? Getting mixed reviews some say yes some say no and the ones posting to newegg hating on the drive might not be aligning it properly b/c some forums/reviews/how to's say if you don't the OS will freeze and crash. Maybe that is why it is crashingfor some of the posters on newegg because they are not runing diskpart.exe.
2. What is "Triming" the drive. Is that the same as diskpart? I have heard some referrences to that.
3. What would be the ideal sector size .. .4kb? 1024kb? Somewhere inbetween? What is the associated differences ? smaller sector size less wasted space and faster but more sectors I would assume and 1024kb larger sectors but less to address? What's the short and sweet verdict on best size to set sectors to?

All in all techs I work with say it's easier to setup an SSD than it looks and they didn't use diskpart and they have had SSD drives for over 4months with no problems... but I don't want to miss anything I need to do and the aligning process seems legit .. so what do you recommend Marismar ?

Reference links for what I have researched so far.
http://www.ocztechnologyforum.com/f...you-need-to-know-in-easy-to-understand-format.

http://www.ocztechnologyforum.com/f...h-stuttering-and-increases-drive-working-life.

http://www.ocztechnology.com/files/...Update_Guide_8_12_2011_Windows_consumer_1.pdf

As with most things, there will always be at least two sides to every discussion ... yes you should, no you shouldn't ... always do it, never do it, sometimes do it ... etc. One of the most knowledgeable people I know (on this forum, at least) is Bare Foot Kid. He recommends using Diskpart as part of the initial optimization process. As I understand it (and here I have to insert my usual disclaimer - I'm not an expert in anything) Diskpart helps by preventing misalignment in cache, or wasted cache whether it's an SSD or HDD. While it could be argued that there are no moving parts in an SSD so alignment shouldn't even be an issue, there's still a finite number of read/write cycles before an SSD fails. Anything that can be done to minimize unnecessary reads/writes should be a good thing. You might want to take a look at a tutorial Bare Foot Kid wrote. I haven't heard of any problems following his instructions.

http://www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/91339-ssd-hdd-optimize-windows-reinstallation.html

Another useful tutorial is this (although I think I'd refrain from the tweaks);

TweakTown's Solid State Drive Optimization Guide :: TweakTown USA Edition

As to trimming and sector size, you may find some useful info on this Microsoft blog specifically how Windows 7 relates to SSDs.

Support and Q&A for Solid-State Drives - Engineering Windows 7 - Site Home - MSDN Blogs

Diskpart.exe thumbs up!

Masimar,
Thanks for the honest and logical post. Seems like a valid point to use Diskpart.exe. I also have been reading on it and it sounded like a good Idea to me as well but I was thrown off by the "na... you don't need to do that" by several people; but, that's not to say everyone who said that could be 100% correct. In fact, as stated I think Diskpart.exe makes perfect sense and maybe the guys having problems on Newegg are ones that didn't use it... not sure speculation but I'll read and learn more about Diskpart.exe now that it's confirmed as a good idea to run.

Also, just to clarify, you mentioned quote "there's still a finite number of read/write cycles before an SSD fails. Anything that can be done to minimize unnecessary reads/writes should be a good thing" ... I think you are confusing that part with my second unfamiliar term which was "trimming". Sorry not trying to correct you but I just learned today myself from a coworker that "trimming" is the method by which you reduce write times to the SSD not aligning. As you may already know, SSD drives have a limited life span on write cycles. The SSD I am interested in has a 1,000,000 write life span. Read does not play into this; from what I understand, only write goes against the life of the drive (my disclaimer i could be wrong also lolz )
So to recap...
1. Diskpart.exe is a good Idea that not everyone may be aware of or is doing and it's downloadable straight from Microsoft's web site. http://www.microsoft.com/download/en/details.aspx?id=23711
2. Trimming is a different process and is also a good idea to reduce wear from SSD writing to sectors.
3. The ADATA S511 series SATA III SSD drives come with both an aligning tool and a trim tool (two separate programs) in the package along with a bracket !! WOOOT ...
Thanks again for the research, links (i'll check them out in bit) and helping me find the answers...
Peace.
PS merry Xmas everyone! Here are two sites with direct commands for using Diskpart.exe in a scripted order … enjoy!

With 4kb offset http://www.ocztechnologyforum.com/forum/showthread.php?48309-Partition-alignment-importance-under-Windows-XP-(32-bit-and-64-bit)..why-it-helps-with-stuttering-and-increases-drive-working-life


With 1024kb offset (this seems to be the more agreed apon setting)
http://www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/149969-ssd-install-transfer-operating-system.html

OOPS .. correction

The link for the 4kb offset seems to be for XP only not vista or 7; however, I will leave it up for our peeps still in the stone age lolz jk.

For Windows 7. http://www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/149969-ssd-install-transfer-operating-system.html

A fresh install of Windows 7 from CD automatically sets this. Otherwise you need software or CMD.

Partition ### Type Size Offset
------------- ---------------- ------- -------
Partition 1 Primary 59 GB 1024 KB - but 64KB or any number divisible by 4 is also good. The offset has to be divisible by 4.

Click to expand...

Thanks Hopalong X

Thanks H-X

In my readings I didn't see anything that said Windows set it automatically to 1024kb but I'm glad you pointed that out. I quite possibly just missed it while skimming. One of the articles did say that Windows 7 did a better job than XP at handling an SSD so maybe the 1024kb default is what did the better job.


Ps. While on the subject, from what I hear (from tech peers) is that the 4kb offset is the fastest but since you're writing to smaller sectors, and subsequently a ton more of them, the down side is more heat from SSD. Can you confirm/deny? ... Is 64kb a happy medium between 1024kb and 4kb and allow speeds above 500mbs read/writes?
Please let me … Thanks

pss. Diskpart.exe is both downloadable software from Microsoft and works with CMD .. the cmd strings to use in diskpart.exe for a 1024kb offset are in one of the links.

Let Windows set it at 1024kb. You want a multiple of 4 as the offset not 4kb or 64kb.
Going smaller may not be a problem but why make a possible problem so go with the 1024kb.

Sometimes some third party software will set it at 2048kb which is a multiple of 4 and is okay.

I would not go smaller than 1024kb on purpose. Let Windows set it when you install.
If using a third party software to use an existing image many of them automatically use 1024kb.


Mike