| Windows 7: Judge says defendant must decrypt files, Fifth Amendment not at issue |
04 Mar 2012
|
#11 | | Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit |

Quote: Originally Posted by seekermeister I'm not certain about the analogy in the article, comparing it to forcing a person to unlock a safe, because I don't know how the law stands on it. It would seem to me that a person could not be "forced" to unlock either, except in terms of being given jail time. Therefore, it would come down to whether the amount of time for contempt of court is greater or lesser than the time likely to be given, if found guilty of fraud. And from a criminal perspective if the content of the laptop contains info that could track the money involved, allowing it to be recovered, that would also enter the equation. One way or another, a criminal must pay for their crime. Then we don't have the right to have any property against the government since government can seize it anytime it wants.
In our justice system; if you have the money, you can stay out of jail, if you don't, you can't. It means; if you are a minimum wage worker, you will be staying in the jail, but if you are a criminal who made money illlegally, you would stay out of jail with the money you made illegally.
Therefore, in our justice system; being convicted of a crime does not mean that you are guilty or committed a crime since 95% of the cases are being dealt with deals instead of investigations or trials.
So, a minimum wage worker is most likely to take a deal to stay out of jail (probation, etc.) to bring bread to his family than the rich criminals.
Since we can say that our justice system is protecting criminals more than the hard-workers, it is not for us to say that who is a criminal.
In this case or most of the cases, the government can easily be the criminal also (The Amish who was forced to stop distributing milk, search was made out of business hours illegally, the decision was made saying that 'fda has control over private property even if it is not for commerce').
Yes, a criminal must pay for their crime, but who is the criminal?
People with no money, or people with money, or the government itself? | My System Specs |
| System Manufacturer/Model Number ASUS G72 Notebook OS Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit CPU Intel® Core™2 Duo mobile processor P8700 2.53 GHz Memory 6GB DDRII Graphics Card NVIDIA GeForce GTX 260M Sound Card EAX Advanced HD 4.0 + Logitech Wireless Headset G930 Monitor(s) Displays 17.3" LED-backlit LCD high-definition plus widescreen Screen Resolution 1600 x 900 Mouse Logitech Wireless Trackball M570 Cooling Targus Hard Drives 2 x Seagate Momentus 500 GB 5400.6 SATA 3Gb/s Internet Speed 3 to 6 Mbps Download / .5 to 1 Mbps Upload Other Info Clear Modem with Wi-fi*
Comodo Internet Security Premium |
04 Mar 2012
|
#12 | | W7x64 Pro, SuSe 12.1/** W7 x64 Pro, XP MCE Indian Territory |
No person is guaranteed justice in this or any other government on Earth, what the US system offers is a shot at justice. Obviously, there are inequities, and there shall be regardless of how the law may be structured. Once a person is convicted of a crime, they have forfeited certain rights. If that were not so, then it would be impossible to punish anyone of any crime.
If a person accepts a "deal", then they have also accepted all of the penalties involved. If they are not guilty, then they should never accept such a deal. But, to keep in focus, this case doesn't involve a person already convicted of a crime, but one that is charged. Therefore, they are innocent until proven otherwise.
When anyone is being investigated for a crime, the government does have the right to confiscate and analyze any evidence that they may obtain, it doesn't matter where it is, or how it might be secured. For instance, it is possible to obtain resources from a Swiss account. There are some places where a person can place money, where this is not true, but it is not because the person's rights have changed, but because of whether the country where the money is kept has a treaty with the US to cooperate.
When it comes right down to it, a person doesn't have any rights to any property, even if not guilty of a crime, otherwise no one could be forced to pay taxes, such as property tax, which is essentially the same as the government renting a person their property.
I agree that the system has a lot of imperfections, but as bad as it is, it is the best available at this time. And will be, so long as this Earth age remains.
EDIT: The thing that puzzles me, is why they are requiring a password, because I'm sure that the government has the ability to crack any encryption themselves. | My System Specs | | System Manufacturer/Model Number DIY OS W7x64 Pro, SuSe 12.1/** W7 x64 Pro, XP MCE CPU Phenom II 1090T w/Noctua NH-D14 /**4400+ X2 w/CM Hyper TX 3 Motherboard ASRock 890FX Deluxe 4/**A8N-SLI Memory 2 x 2GB Patriot PGS34g1600LLKA/**4x1GB Corsair VS Graphics Card EVGA GTX460 SC/**EVGA 8800GTS Sound Card Asus Xonar D2X/**Xonar D1 Monitor(s) Displays Acer X233H, Dell E152FPc /**LG M237-WD Screen Resolution 1920x1080 & 1024x768/**1980x1080 Keyboard Logitech Media USB/**Saitek Eclipse Mouse Cordless Trackman Wheel/**Ditto PSU CM RS600 w/ APC BX1000G/**Antec 500 TP w/ APC BX1000 Case HAF922/**Antec 1040IIB Cooling 3x200mm, 1x140 and 1x120mm/**5x80mm fans Hard Drives WDC 2TB, 1.5TB, 1TB, 500GB,Seagate 500GB , Maxtor 80GB /**500GB Seagate & WDC 1TB Black Internet Speed 3.3Mbps Other Info SB 560 5.1 w/ Sennheiser RS140/**Creative T20 speakers, Dvico FusionHDTV7 Gold RT, Cisco E3000, HP 5510V AIO, Linksys E3000, Belkin F5U237 hub and **F5D8055 adapter
(** = 2nd rig) |
04 Mar 2012
|
#13 | | Win 7 Pro 64-bit South Central Texas |

Quote: Originally Posted by seekermeister I'm not certain about the analogy in the article, comparing it to forcing a person to unlock a safe, because I don't know how the law stands on it. It would seem to me that a person could not be "forced" to unlock either, except in terms of being given jail time. Therefore, it would come down to whether the amount of time for contempt of court is greater or lesser than the time likely to be given, if found guilty of fraud. And from a criminal perspective if the content of the laptop contains info that could track the money involved, allowing it to be recovered, that would also enter the equation. One way or another, a criminal must pay for their crime. Agreed. But just because someone is accused of a crime doesn't make that person a criminal unless found guilty. Every defendant is supposed to be afforded due process in a criminal case. Due process is the legal requirement that the state (the prosecution) must respect all of the legal rights that are granted to a person; whether they agree with those rights or not is not supposed to be an issue. Many cases have been overturned on appeal when the prosecution (the government) violated the rights of the accused. There's also the old courtroom adage that it's better to set 99 guilty people free rather than wrongfully convict one innocent person.
If the government doesn't have enough legally obtained evidence to prosecute a case, they need to step back and start all over again. Anything less and our country might as well tear up the Constitution and follow the examples set forth by Fidel Castro, Adolf Hitler, Idi Amin, Saddam Hussein, et al. | My System Specs | | Computer type Laptop System Manufacturer/Model Number Sony Vaio VPCEB47GM Laptop OS Win 7 Pro 64-bit CPU Intel i5 2.4 Ghz Memory 8GB DDR3 Graphics Card Intel HD 3000 Sound Card IDT High Definition Monitor(s) Displays 15.6 WGXA Anti-Glare LED Screen Resolution 1280x800 Hard Drives 640Gb 7200rpm Antivirus MSE Browser Opera (primary) with IE9 backup |
04 Mar 2012
|
#14 | | W7 x64 3rd Rock from the Sun |
In the United Kingdom the law demands you decrypt any data the authorities so demand you to. If you fail to comply then you can face a custodial sentence exceeding that of whichever crime the data is suspected to be in relation to.
The answer is therefore an encryption program which offers plausible deniability (eg; two levels of encryption, two passwords, so that password one reveals only relatively harmless data and you can deny that there ever was a secondary password...)
So much for M$' BitLocker... | My System Specs | | System Manufacturer/Model Number Custom built machine OS W7 x64 CPU Intel Q9300 2.5Ghz Quad LGA775 (Would like Q9650) Motherboard Gigabyte GA-EP45T-UD3R (F6 Bios) Memory 4Gb OCZ Gold 1,333Mhz Graphics Card Palit HD4850 O/C Sonic 512Mb DDR3, Dual DViD's Sound Card Azalia to twin Samson 50w Studio Monitors Monitor(s) Displays Twin Dell (E-IPS) U2311H 23.6" Screens Screen Resolution 1920 x 1080 @ 60Hz Keyboard Cherry PS/2 custom model Mouse Lenovo USB laser "Thinkpad" Mouse PSU OCZ 600w Case Lian-Li PC8 acoustifoamed' aluminium tower Cooling Scythe 140mm Zipang Hard Drives Crucial M4 SSD, archives on twin Western Digital Caviar Black WD2002FAEX, 2TB, 7200rpm HDD's, Samsung Ritemaster CD/DVD Burner... Internet Speed ADSL2+ @14Mbps downstream & Cat6 Gigabit Ethernet Antivirus NOD32 Browser Opera Other Info Silicon Dust HD Homerun Dual FTA (Ethernet) TV Tuners, Dray Tek Vigor 2850Vn router and 8x HP Gigabit Switch. Lian-Li CR26 Card Reader, Canon MF4430 iSensys laser printer/scanner. |
04 Mar 2012
|
#15 | | Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit |
So as it was on piratebay; downloading/uploading a Michael Jackson song will be punished by 5 years, but killing Michael Jackson will be punished by 4 years (According to California laws, he will not even go to prison and he will do a maximum of 2 years in jail, which he can get out under a year depending on the sheriff); and this will all be because government(s) says so. | My System Specs | | System Manufacturer/Model Number ASUS G72 Notebook OS Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit CPU Intel® Core™2 Duo mobile processor P8700 2.53 GHz Memory 6GB DDRII Graphics Card NVIDIA GeForce GTX 260M Sound Card EAX Advanced HD 4.0 + Logitech Wireless Headset G930 Monitor(s) Displays 17.3" LED-backlit LCD high-definition plus widescreen Screen Resolution 1600 x 900 Mouse Logitech Wireless Trackball M570 Cooling Targus Hard Drives 2 x Seagate Momentus 500 GB 5400.6 SATA 3Gb/s Internet Speed 3 to 6 Mbps Download / .5 to 1 Mbps Upload Other Info Clear Modem with Wi-fi*
Comodo Internet Security Premium |
05 Mar 2012
|
#16 | | |
I'm not a lawyer but as I understand it, a subpoena is a legal demand for you to produce something, usually documents, but they have to be able to demonstrate that those documents exist or existed but it is not authority to seize them. A warrant, on the other hand, gives them the authority to search for and seize enumerated items in enumerated places. If there is a safe, you do not have to open it but they are permitted to destroy the safe to find out what is inside.
Since they have no idea what is on the hard drive, they cannot demand that you produce unspecified information. If they have a warrant, you are not obliged to cooperate, you just cannot actively block their efforts.
In any case, I'd stick with the "what password?" story. | My System Specs | | OS Windows 7 Ultimate x64 |
17 Mar 2012
|
#17 | | |

Quote: Originally Posted by seekermeister No person is guaranteed justice in this or any other government on Earth, what the US system offers is a shot at justice. Obviously, there are inequities, and there shall be regardless of how the law may be structured. Once a person is convicted of a crime, they have forfeited certain rights. If that were not so, then it would be impossible to punish anyone of any crime.
If a person accepts a "deal", then they have also accepted all of the penalties involved. If they are not guilty, then they should never accept such a deal. But, to keep in focus, this case doesn't involve a person already convicted of a crime, but one that is charged. Therefore, they are innocent until proven otherwise.
When anyone is being investigated for a crime, the government does have the right to confiscate and analyze any evidence that they may obtain, it doesn't matter where it is, or how it might be secured. For instance, it is possible to obtain resources from a Swiss account. There are some places where a person can place money, where this is not true, but it is not because the person's rights have changed, but because of whether the country where the money is kept has a treaty with the US to cooperate.
When it comes right down to it, a person doesn't have any rights to any property, even if not guilty of a crime, otherwise no one could be forced to pay taxes, such as property tax, which is essentially the same as the government renting a person their property.
I agree that the system has a lot of imperfections, but as bad as it is, it is the best available at this time. And will be, so long as this Earth age remains. EDIT: The thing that puzzles me, is why they are requiring a password, because I'm sure that the government has the ability to crack any encryption themselves. In theory they have nowhere near the ability to crack current encryption but perhaps they have found methods or are planning them - The NSA Is Building the Country's Biggest Spy Center (Watch What You Say) | Threat Level | Wired.com
Bit worrying about the Big Brother aspect though. | My System Specs | | System Manufacturer/Model Number Compaq desktop OS Windows 7 x64 SP1 CPU Athlon II x2 215 Memory 4.0 GB Graphics Card Onboard Sound Card Creative SB X-Fi Titanium HD (nice) Monitor(s) Displays 24" Dell LCD Screen Resolution 1900 x 1200 Keyboard USB Mouse USB PSU 430w Hard Drives 320 GB, 500 GB and 750 GB 7200 rpm Internet Speed approx 10 Mbps System Manufacturer/Model Number Compaq desktop OS Windows 7 x64 SP1 CPU Athlon II x2 215 Memory 4.0 GB Graphics Card Onboard Sound Card Creative SB X-Fi Titanium HD (nice) Monitor(s) Displays 24" Dell LCD Screen Resolution 1900 x 1200 Keyboard USB Mouse USB PSU 430w Hard Drives 320 GB, 500 GB and 750 GB 7200 rpm Internet Speed approx 10 Mbps |
23 Mar 2012
|
#19 | | Windows 7 Home Premium 64 bit. (On both machines) Lincolnshire, UK. |
" ... a woman arrested in a mortgage scam must give authorities access to her encrypted hard drive".
I am giving some thought and sympathy to the people financially affected by the alleged activities of this woman and her alleged co-defendant in jail.
Just as in the UK now, more efforts made on behalf of the alleged wrongdoers, than to their victims.
I am no right winger, but I see this happening all the time. This woman should receive proper justice, but what if the information on this hard drive is actual proof of her guilt, and the only certain, undeniable proof available to the prosecution?
Having said that, why did she not take the opportunity at some point to destroy the drive? (Large hammer, welding torch, etc.) | My System Specs | | System Manufacturer/Model Number (PC) Gigabyte EG41MFT-US2H Self build. (Laptop) HP Dv7. OS Windows 7 Home Premium 64 bit. (On both machines) CPU (PC) Intel Quad Core Q6600: (Laptop) Turion II M520 Motherboard PC: as above. Laptop (HP System Board) 3639 33.23 Memory PC: Corsair DDR3 4GB Corsair Laptop: DDR-2 Micron 800 4 GB. Graphics Card ATI Asus HD6770: Laptop: ATI Mobile Radeon 4500. Sound Card Onboard. Monitor(s) Displays PC: Lyama Prolite E2407HDS 24" Laptop 17" Screen Resolution PC: 1920x1080. Laptop:1600x900 Keyboard Logitech MK 250 wireless. Mouse PC: Logitech MK 250 wireless. Laptop: Logitech Wireless M235 PSU OCZ 550 GX. Laptop - ? Case Black Coolermaster Centurion 5 II. Cooling 2x120 mm. Coolermaster front & rear: 120mm. CM side fan. Hard Drives Pc: WD 5000AAKS (O/s, Photos, Files.)
Seagate ST3100520AS 1TB (Films, Video)
Laptop: WDC WD32000BEKT-605t1
External Backup: another WD 5000AAKS, in Trust E-SATA case. Internet Speed (Rural Lincolnshire!) From 2 to 2.8 Mb. Other Info Clean-installed laptop. PC, networked as Master to laptop.
TV Tuner card "WinTV Nova T-500 Dual Tuner fitted, in order to watch sport & own film/TV choice without marital discord! NOTE: works fine, excellent Freeview reception in a poor signal area.
Laptop Mouse: tiny USB thumb drive, works fine. |
24 Mar 2012
|
#20 | | Windows 7 Ultimate 32-Bit |

Quote: Originally Posted by Bertison " ... a woman arrested in a mortgage scam must give authorities access to her encrypted hard drive".
I am giving some thought and sympathy to the people financially affected by the alleged activities of this woman and her alleged co-defendant in jail.
Just as in the UK now, more efforts made on behalf of the alleged wrongdoers, than to their victims.
I am no right winger, but I see this happening all the time. This woman should receive proper justice, but what if the information on this hard drive is actual proof of her guilt, and the only certain, undeniable proof available to the prosecution?
Having said that, why did she not take the opportunity at some point to destroy the drive? (Large hammer, welding torch, etc.) She either couldn't due to it being seized by cops or whatever. Or simply didn't think of it. | My System Specs | | System Manufacturer/Model Number Custom OS Windows 7 Ultimate 32-Bit CPU Intel(R) Core(TM) i7 CPU 920 @ 2.67GHz Motherboard Gigabyte Technology Co., Ltd. EX58-UD3R Memory Corsair DDR3 4Gb Graphics Card Nvidia Ge-Force GTS250 Sound Card High Definition Audio Device Monitor(s) Displays Envision 19 inch Screen Resolution 1280x1024 Mouse Microsoft Optical USB Mouse. Case "Elite" style case Cooling "Cooler Master" Hard Drives 2 physical hard drives (4 letter drives) that equal up to 626.3 gigs of space all together. I think both are Maxtors, but primary is a SATA drive, secondary is a SATA, too. Internet Speed Verizon DSL Internet Judge says defendant must decrypt files, Fifth Amendment not at issue problems? All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:27 PM. | |