Another BSOD 3rd Thread

essenbe said:

Thanks very much for the reply. I uninstalled driver verifier for Roxio and renamed the offending driver. The system would not start and went through startup repair. Then it rebooted. After reboot I uninstalled Roxio. So, we'll see what happens now.
As far as hardware- here is a brief list of what I have done copied from a previous thread about this.

so far I have:
1. Updated 2 drivers - the network driver from the manuf. website and the USB 3.0 (NEC) from MSI.

2. I have run prime95 and Furmark - Both passed.
3. I have run memtest 86 probably 7 times now. I have run it with 16GB installed which showed two bad sticks. I located and removed those sticks. I have run it both hot and cold with the remaining two sticks - 4 times all passed.
I have run one of the good sticks from a slot where a stick failed 7 passes - it passed.
I ran one stick alone that failed in one of the slots that passed and it passed. Those tests I ran yesterday. I am currently running just those two sticks. I have run memtest on those two sticks for 7 passes with no errors.
3 I have seatools from seagate and my Seagate HD passed both the SMART test and the short drive self test.

I have WinDig from Western Digital- I ran tests with it on my WD drive and it passed.

I have OCZ's toolbox and it reports no problems with my SSD. I also have crysralDiskmart disk info test. It reports the SSD as 100% healthy.

Those tests should cover most of the hardware problems except the PSU. My PSU is an 'el-Cheepo' but it seems to work. It is 600W which is probably much more than I need.

At this point I don't know ahat else to do. I have probably done a few things I haven't mentioned. I am beginning to think maybe software. But I have very little on this SSD-about 20GB on a 90GB drive including windows.

I have had problems with both windows explorer and ie explorer. Both crash several times daily. I am using Firefox at this point.
I have the free version of Macrium installed and it does not work correctly. I may uninstall that to see if it helps.

I have run scannow and checkdisk on every HD I have several times withoun any errors.

I have deleated every BSOD report I have. I had so many on my desktop I didn't know which was which. Most of them have been uploaded to these 2 threads.


BTW, I forgot to mention that on 12/9 I did a secure erase of my ssd and then a clean install of windows. I transferred
nothing except my Documents folder from the other installation. My Seagate is the Data drive. Most of my libraries are there.

Since then I have installed windows on the Western Digiital to eliminate problems with the SSD. I did this on 12/15.

If the problem is hardware, I don't know what it could be.

And, to anticipate your next question, I do not and have never OC'd.

Looks like you have done some thorough hardware testing.
When RAM passes memtest86+ it doesn't guaranty that it's 100% OK, it still might be causing problems. Memtest86+ is an indication that the RAM possibly not the cause, but the settings from CPUZ can show some possible setting adjustments.

I see that you have previously un-installed CoreTemp and Speedfan, were the temps normal? What temps where you running at with the system stressed?

If possible useCore Temp to check the CPU temps when at idle, under load and/or testing.
Let us know the minimum and maximum temps you get.

Go to your BIOS and tell us what the CPU, RAM and CPU integrated North Bridge (CPU-NB) voltages are.
You can get the actual CPU voltages from CPUZ CPU tab but, the other tabs show the recommended voltages not actual.

An 'el-Cheepo' PSU can cause all kinds of issues, you should consider a good quality brand with more power than you think you need, 650 to 750W should be enough. The more hardware attached the more power you will need. Already done.

Just noticed your PSU in system specs, the CORSAIR HX650W modular is a good PSU and shouldn't be causing you any problems.

essenbe said:

I got the ram in today and installed it. I don't think it is running at the correct speed though. It is G Skill F3-12800CL7D-4GBRM (2X2). The timings are 7-8-7-24 1.6V. I have set the timings as best I can. To enable you to set timings you have to change the dram timing modes. The options are DCT0,DCT1,Both. I put both. I think the problem is the FSB/Dram ratio. I don't know what it should be. My choices are 1:2, 1:2.66, 1:3.33 and 1:4. Any suggestions?
I am still getting BSODs. But it seems much better, just occasionally now. I have had none since the new ram, but it has only been in for a couple hours.

First thing I noticed is that RAM appears to be for Intel CPUs and boards, they will sometimes run on AMD boards but are a known issue.
You may need to RMA it for some AMD RAM, lets try a few adjustments first.

The CPUZ Memory tab shows you what the RAM is set at currently, the SPD tab is the manufacturer recommended settings.
Your AMD CPU's integrated memory controller is known to not like running RAM at 1600 (800 MHz) so I would recommend leaving it at 1333 (667 MHz).

Your SPD tab, JEDEC#4, says you should be running at 685MHz, 667MHz should be fine it's not enough to try changing, timings at 9-9-9-25 and 1.5v.
The Memory tab shows the command rate 2T, this will help with stability, just leave it at 2T.

I would try these settings and see if you still get BSoDs, if you are then let us know the CPU-NB, or equivalent, voltage.
Sometimes a bump in the NB will help the memory controller and give you more stability.

I've just read the first page and last page, will view the rest and edit if necessary.


EDIT:
If you're trying to run 16GB RAM, or even 8GB then you will need to bump your CPU-NB voltage this is for the CPU integrated memory controller.
From your MOBO manual:

• To enable successful system boot-up, always nsert the memory modules into the DIMM1 first.
• Due to the chpset resource deployment, the system densty wll only be detected up to 15+GB (not full 16GB) when each DIMM s installed wth a 4GB memory module.

What is your CPU-NB voltage?
Page 3-19 of your MOBO manual.
If it only shows 'Auto' then add the minimum voltage and tell us the new voltage reading.
Stock voltages for the PhenomII CPU-NB should be between 1.15-1.30v.


Is your BIOS American Megatrends?

How long did you run Prime95?

At that time I ran Prime for 5 hours but temps were so high, I shut it down, but the CPU showed no errors. I have since memtest86 changed ram. I realize that it is intel ram, but the reason I picked it is because this particular kit is on MSI's QVL list. Most of the ram on their QVL list is listed as intel ram. However, I have been running this ram for about 2 weeks 24/7. It has done much better. I have only had 2 bsods during that time. Once while I was changing values in bios so I consider that my fault and the second time was when I installed SP1. When it downloaded I restarted it installed during shutdown, reconfigured durind startup and as soon as windows loaded it BSOD'd. But it started back up and have had no problems since.
According to MSI's Afterburner utility which I don't believe is accurate- CPU V Core is 1.475 and CPU NB is 1.150.
According to BIOS h/W monitor, CPU temp is 34, sys temp is 36, Core VID is 1.368.
I think my Bios is not working correctly. I have set ram timings to the rated value of 7-8-7. Bios CPU-Z function (which is supposed to be the SPD tab on CPUz) still says it is 9-9-9. Yet when I get into windows, CPUz shows rhe timings I set. I have read the manual numerous times. It says I shoul be able to set valuse and tells how. I have tried every way I know ti increase CPU NB but it will not change it simply says auto.
I have read that according to AMD, to change ram speed to 1600, you increase FSB to 240 (stock 200x14). You can either leave it there which OC's the cpu to 3360 or you lower the multiplier. I did that. I lowered the multiplier to 12 which put me at 2880 (stock 2800). That's when I BSOD'd. I changed the multiplier back to 14 and have been running good ever since.

I'm trying to answer all of your questions. I cant find the type bios on the POST screen or Bios, but I believe it is AMD. Neither says anything about Award. I have never OC'd before and never wanted to, but I must admit that the computer seems to run smoother and quicker like this.
As far as temps, I was normally running (Core tenp) 23°C idle and after 1 hour of prime was at 49°C. Temps right now are 22°. Idle temps will get to 28-29° later in the day (Florida weather I guess). This is the way I am running right now. It seems to be stable.
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EDIT: The 16GB you are referring to is what I was running. 16GB of DDR3-1333 9-9-9-24. I would have thought that would run on any system. After all the testing and replacing everything I figured it had to be the Ram or CPU. Ram was cheaper to try, so I bought 4GB of DDR3-1600 7-8-7-24. That is what I am running now. It seems to be much better, and again I have run it 24/7 for 10 days to 2 wks. I still believe the MB is not right. Talking to MSI is like talking to my 8 year old Granddaughter. He told be I couldn't run 1600 ram on this motherboard when the specs clearly say 1600-1800 or 2000. When I told him yhat he said my problem was that I needed a better CPU. I told him that this is an AM3 MB and I am running a PHIIx6, what would he suggest I buy? He Hung up. I certainly cannot depend on them for any help. I may just buy another MB. For what I have spent on this thing, I could have bought a supercomputer.

If it is any help, this is after Prime for about 1 hour. It may be the weather here in Fla, but it seems like the temps went up on this and my Dell after SP1. I still cannot adjust the CPU NB in Bios. But I can change the CPU NB Ratio (whatever that means). Under normal use temps never go over 33°C.
Also, I have a Cooler Master TX3 CPU Cooler. I know it is not rated very well but it was the largest I can fit in my case. It also does much better that the stock cooler. Under Prime with the stock cooler I hit 78°.
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EDIT: System Monitor is a desktop gadget, but it gets its info from CoreTemp.

I don't know if this worked as I had to do it through Control Center (Afterburner), but I increased the CPU NB from 1.15 to 1.155. Does that sound about right? Ram is set to 1.613 (rated 1.6).

I will answer some questions below in Blue

essenbe said:

At that time I ran Prime for 5 hours but temps were so high, I shut it down, but the CPU showed no errors. I have since memtest86 changed ram. I realize that it is intel ram, but the reason I picked it is because this particular kit is on MSI's QVL list. Most of the ram on their QVL list is listed as intel ram. However, I have been running this ram for about 2 weeks 24/7. It has done much better. I have only had 2 bsods during that time. Once while I was changing values in bios so I consider that my fault and the second time was when I installed SP1. When it downloaded I restarted it installed during shutdown, reconfigured durind startup and as soon as windows loaded it BSOD'd. But it started back up and have had no problems since..

Sometimes the Intel speced RAM will run on AMD board. There has been many sites with many threads on this issue, you can google it, most of the time the RAM reps recommend to RMA for AMD spec RAM.
It is possible to get it running with setting adjustments, sometimes.

essenbe said:

According to MSI's Afterburner utility which I don't believe is accurate- CPU V Core is 1.475 and CPU NB is 1.150.

You need to set the CPU-NB to 1.20v.
Select the 'Auto' feild and press enter, it will give you options depending on your BIOS (the brand should be listed on the top of every page), select 'Manual' or the voltage you want, 1.20v.

essenbe said:

According to BIOS h/W monitor, CPU temp is 34, sys temp is 36, Core VID is 1.368.
I think my Bios is not working correctly. I have set ram timings to the rated value of 7-8-7. Bios CPU-Z function (which is supposed to be the SPD tab on CPUz) still says it is 9-9-9.

The CPUZ SPD tab is the G. Skill recommended settings, not the actual settings, G. Skill puts this on your RAM and CPUZ is just reading it.

The CPUZ 'Memory' tab will tell you what the RAM is actually running at.

CPUZ does not give you the current actual voltage for RAM, it is only the G. Skill recommended voltage.

You need to get the readings from BIOS for the actual voltages for the RAM and CPU-NB.

essenbe said:

Yet when I get into windows, CPUz shows rhe timings I set. I have read the manual numerous times. It says I shoul be able to set valuse and tells how. I have tried every way I know ti increase CPU NB but it will not change it simply says auto..

Select 'AUTO' hit enter, this will give you options, select 'Manual' if that option is listed. Otherwise select 1.20v or the smallest increase, example: +0.02v, it will then give you the actual voltage setting.

essenbe said:

I have read that according to AMD, to change ram speed to 1600, you increase FSB to 240 (stock 200x14). You can either leave it there which OC's the cpu to 3360 or you lower the multiplier. I did that. I lowered the multiplier to 12 which put me at 2880 (stock 2800). That's when I BSOD'd. I changed the multiplier back to 14 and have been running good ever since.

This is a well documented issue with AMD CPUs, google it or I will give you a link later, some have success, but it takes a lot of setting adjustments.
It is best to leave it at 1333MHz (667Mhz), the performance increase to 1600MHz is hardly noticeable.

essenbe said:

I'm trying to answer all of your questions. I cant find the type bios on the POST screen or Bios, but I believe it is AMD. Neither says anything about Award. I have never OC'd before and never wanted to, but I must admit that the computer seems to run smoother and quicker like this.
As far as temps, I was normally running (Core tenp) 23°C idle and after 1 hour of prime was at 49°C. Temps right now are 22°. Idle temps will get to 28-29° later in the day (Florida weather I guess). This is the way I am running right now. It seems to be stable.


EDIT: The 16GB you are referring to is what I was running. 16GB of DDR3-1333 9-9-9-24. I would have thought that would run on any system. After all the testing and replacing everything I figured it had to be the Ram or CPU. Ram was cheaper to try, so I bought 4GB of DDR3-1600 7-8-7-24. That is what I am running now. It seems to be much better, and again I have run it 24/7 for 10 days to 2 wks. I still believe the MB is not right. Talking to MSI is like talking to my 8 year old Granddaughter. He told be I couldn't run 1600 ram on this motherboard when the specs clearly say 1600-1800 or 2000. When I told him yhat he said my problem was that I needed a better CPU. I told him that this is an AM3 MB and I am running a PHIIx6, what would he suggest I buy? He Hung up. I certainly cannot depend on them for any help. I may just buy another MB. For what I have spent on this thing, I could have bought a supercomputer.

Your G. Skill recommended should run 16GB at 1333MHZ 9-9-9-21, command rate of 2T.
BUT, with 4 RAM cards and/or 4GB or higher you will need to bump the CPU-NB and maybe the RAM voltages.
This is a very common recommendation from the RAM suppliers web-sites, again if you want confirmation you can google it. Check the RAM sites, G. Skill, OCZ, Corsair, etc. Also the Over Clocking sites have good RAM stabilization info.

Let us know if you get the BIOS settings changes, most important is the CPU-NB bump to 1.20v.

I tried again but bios will not allow me to change the CPU NB. I adjusted it in Control Center and saved the profile to 1.2.it was at 1.15. The 16GB you are referring to is the old ram I was having trouble with. I have replaced that with 4GB (2X2) of DDR31600. I am only running the 4GB now. The dram voltage in bios is set to auto which is 1.6V. A lot of hardware has changed since this thread started, but with those changes and the new ram it seems to be running fairly stable right now. I still don't think this bios is working right. In the CPU NB settings the left panel says auto, the right panel tells how to change it but following those instructions it will not change. Pressing enter on auto gives me no options either. I have changed CPU Settings to manual and it still will not change CPU NB. If Control Center works, I have changed it there.

As stated before, I think I changed the CPU NB to 1.2 through Control Center. I lowered the dram voltage from the recommended 1.6 to 1.5, reset the timings from the rated 7-8-7 to 9-9-9. I also lowered the FSB from 240 to the stock 200X14. See if this is more like what you were suggesting.
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Looks good, strange about not being able to change the CPU-NB voltage in BIOS.
Which BIOS version do you have?
Hopefully not a beta version, they can be buggy.

I'll do some checking on the BIOS issues.

Even 4GB RAM will sometimes need a CPU-NB voltage bump, it's actually the 2GB cards that need a bit more voltage. If you were still having crashes I think this will help. Your issues sound like they are being caused by under volted memory controller and maybe under volted RAM.

If you have another crash, bump the RAM voltage back to 1.6v and the CPU-NB to 1.25v.

Let us know how it's going.

I have the latest bios version put out to the public V1.8. I understand the bios is supposed to be in the first line of the POST screen. Mine says A7642AMS. Not sure what bios that is, but the 7642 part is MSI's model number for my MB.
Sorry I have given you such a hard time about this, but I just don't understand much of it. I realize this doesn't work out right but I just thought if I buy high performance ram, listed on their QVL list, I should be able to run it at it's performance rate and lower timimgs. I guess its like I would like to get what I paid for. Seems it doesn't work that way. But, at least it appears to be stable now and I am happy about that. When I decided to build this computer I never envisioned I would have to buy it twice. I would like to thank you for your help. It is people like you that makes this forum the best. I just want you to realize how frustrated I have been and how thankful I am for people like you.
Thanks again,
Steve

Glad to help, RAM issues are not an exact science. Due mainly to the slight differences in all electronic parts and systems, certain combinations can cause problems.

I've found this hardware BSoD issue is quite common. The RAM memory controller voltage bump helps a lot of this type of problems, not always the answer but is a good place to start, statisically it has the best results.

There is a lot of information on the Over Clocking sites, RAM troubleshooting methods are basically the same as RAM OC methods. Both are searching for stability.
Generally accepted steps are to manually enter the first four RAM timings.
Check and usually bump the RAM and/or Memory controller voltage.
If still not stable, then back off the RAM frequency, change the timings and voltages accordingly. Start with the RAM SPD recommended settings and tweak from there.
It's a trial and error process and difficult to do on a forum, usually takes a long time to walk someone through it. This is why RAM and OC sites won't OC RAM for someone. You have to read up and search for the steps on the various sites. When you ask specific questions, the experienced members will answer.
Other than that, it's a piece of cake

Two exact same computers may not run the same, luck of the draw.


Here is a couple links discussing the AMD memory controller problem with 1600 MHz RAM.

VERY IMPORTANT INFORMATION REGARDING AMD AM3 CPU's and RAM SPEEDS

AMD AM3 CPU's and Memory Speed Issues above 1333 Mhz.

These are from the Gigabyte forum but the info pertains to all AMD boards and all RAM.

According to your mobo site the 1.8 BIOS version is for AMI BIOS, American Megatrends Inc.

Here is a rather direct answer to the changing voltage in BIOS question, from your MSI Forum.
Sticky:You can't change your Cell Menu voltages?

"Just read the manual and use correct keys!!

NumPad's +/- or PageUp/PageDown if you want to adjust values."




Your board manual page 3-2:

• The items under each BIOS category described in this chapter are under contnuious update for better system performance. Therefore, the description may be slightly different from the latest BIOS and should be held for reference only.
• Upon boot-up, the 1st line appearng after the memory count is the BIOS verson. It is usually in the format:

A7642AMS V1.0 020110 where:

1st digit refers to BIOS maker as A = AMI, W = AWARD, and P = PHOENIX.

2nd - 5th digit refers to the model number.
6th digit refers to the chipset as I = Intel, N = NVIDIA, A = AMD and V = VIA.
7th - 8th digit refers to the customer as MS = all standard customers.
V1.0 refers to the BIOS verson.
020110 refers to the date ths BIOS was released.

Control Keys

<↑> Move to the previous tem
<↓> Move to the next item
<←> Move to the item in the left hand
<→> Move to the tem in the right hand
<Enter> Select the item
<Esc> Jumps to the Exit menu or returns to the main menu from a submenu
<+/PU> Increase the numeric value or make changes
<-/PD> Decrease the numeric value or make changes
<F1> General Help
<F6> Load Optimzed Defaults
<F8> Load Fail-Safe Defaults
<F10> Save all the CMOS changes and exit

Gettng Help

After entering the Setup menu, the first menu you will see is the Main Menu.
Main Menu
The main menu lists the setup functions you can make changes to. You can use the
arrow keys ( *↓ ) to select the item. The on-line descrpton of the highlighted setup
functon is dsplayed at the bottom of the screen.
Sub-Menu
If you find a rght pointer symbol (as shown n the rght vew) appears to the left of certian fields that means a sub-menu can be launched from ths field. A sub-menu contains additional options for
a field parameter. You can use arrow keys ( *↓ ) to highlight the
field and press <Enter> to call up the sub-menu. Then you can use the control keys to
enter values and move from field to field wthn a sub-menu. If you want to return to the
man menu, just press the <Esc >.

General Help <F1>

The BIOS setup program provdes a General Help screen. You can call up this screen
from any menu by simply pressng <F1>. The Help screen lists the approprate keys to
use and the possble selections for the highlighted item. Press <Esc> to exit the Help
screen.

Hope this helps.


Let us know if you have any questions.