Windows 7 Forums

Welcome to Windows 7 Forums. Our forum is dedicated to helping you find support and solutions for any problems regarding your Windows 7 PC be it Dell, HP, Acer, Asus or a custom build. We also provide an extensive Windows 7 tutorial section that covers a wide range of tips and tricks.


Windows 7: Os x

09 Jun 2009   #21
jw12345

Windows 7
 
 

I'm actually very interested in a laptop you can find that has the same weight, thinness, 7hr battery life, backlit keyboard, and sturdiness of say Apple's new 13" MBP. It will cost me $1100 due to university pricing. I've looked for a really long time and haven't found any that fit the bill. Seriously, I haven't found a single other company that designs as good looking notebooks for less money, though Sony comes close. My HP tablet's LEDs aren't even quite the same color blue (all 14 of them mind you), the glossy plastic looks horrible after a few days, flexes like crazy, fan is so loud I can't use it in quiet meetings, and is being repaired for the third time in 8 months as of right now. The dell studio14z feature wise is also close, but once you even the specs out roughly, there's only a $200 or so difference that I'd gladly pay for Apple's design and little extra features (and for many consumers, a free ipod touch).

Quote:
Opening an app takes less than a second, quite frankly, the diffence between minimized and restart is negligible due to SuperFetch.
I still stand by the separation of windows and apps, but alas, it's not worth it to argue preference. But saying that superfetch will equalize program starting and launching a new window is simply wrong. For small light-weight programs, this is true, but opening a program is much more than just dumping the preloaded files from memory into an active state. Large programs take 4-5 seconds to initialize and run through the program's start up routine. And even programs like firefox can take a second or so. It's not a huge deal, but those little awkward pauses when you're working on have to wait 3 seconds vs a fraction of a second really influence how well a computer just gets out of your way to let you work.

Regarding OEM's putting all the programs you need on your PC, you must be referring to the mounds of shovelware and trials they so kindly leave for you. Very rarely have I bought a PC that didn't need extensive uninstalling, downloading of third party programs, reinstalling. I've had a handful of PCs that I've had to wipe the drive the instant I got the machine because of how horrible it was (HP I'm lookin' at you.)

Quad-cores, you're right, apple doesn't offer them, but for most uses, they are of dubious benefits. Video encoding and manipulation is the exception, but the number of people I know who actually do heavy video work on a computer often enough that it would really matter are small. I know very few people with desktops of any sort nowadays honestly. I'm talking about what's best for most consumers. I don't believe that most consumers are doing things that necessitate a quad core processor.

And yes, I know the Admin isn't a true administrator any longer, but whether or not this is Microsoft's fault, pc users in general tend to get malware left and right. In a purely practical sense, I tell my friends and family to consider macs just because I know that few people practice perfectly safe computing. These people aren't dumb, but manage to find themselves in trouble all the time. A sort of undeserved plus for macs is that it's very rare to get these sort of things.

And I've yet to see a dell that had nearly everything you'd ever need preinstalled. Just take a typical American teenager. IM? you'll sometimes have the ad-infested AIM client by the OEM there, but ichat is much better integrated (it's dead simple to do things like remote desktop through ichat with no setup) Music? itunes is the king right now. Mail? never seen as good as mail.app on the pc side preinstalled, and windows 7 is stripping out much of the MS versions. I don't trust budget PC OEMs to fill out the lineup. FFS my My last pc tablet was, straight out of the box, barely usable because of ads and trials, and wanted me to register for half a dozen things first boot. Name an OEM that includes no crapware, a solid suite for mail, calendar, internet, music, im, and ilife equivalents that are up to what is included in a mac. You can literally get apple's ilife/osx/iwork package and never have to download a single piece of software.

I'm sure you can find plenty of examples of how Apple can't fit certain scenarios, but what I'm getting at is the general populace of middle-class users who don't mind an extra $200 for design, use their notebooks for several hours a day for reports, college, business, presentations, internet, entertainment, etc. and need a quality notebook that doesn't have to be the fastest per dollar, but have a good all around experience from shopping for the computer to daily usage.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
09 Jun 2009   #22
PhreePhly

Windows 7 x64 (RTM via MSDN)
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by jw12345 View Post
I'm actually very interested in a laptop you can find that has the same weight, thinness, 7hr battery life, backlit keyboard, and sturdiness of say Apple's new 13" MBP. It will cost me $1100 due to university pricing. I've looked for a really long time and haven't found any that fit the bill. Seriously, I haven't found a single other company that designs as good looking notebooks for less money, though Sony comes close. My HP tablet's LEDs aren't even quite the same color blue (all 14 of them mind you), the glossy plastic looks horrible after a few days, flexes like crazy, fan is so loud I can't use it in quiet meetings, and is being repaired for the third time in 8 months as of right now. The dell studio14z feature wise is also close, but once you even the specs out roughly, there's only a $200 or so difference that I'd gladly pay for Apple's design and little extra features.
Again, you're placing a lot of price on looks. I don't. If I forego the looks, I get far more bang for the buck. You mention the Dell being $200 less than your University pricing, so that puts it around $350 less than retail. That starts adding up. In the 5 years my wife had her inspiron, two friends had their macbook and macbook pro repaired, with the macbook need to go back 3 times.

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by jw12345 View Post
I still stand by the separation of windows and apps, but alas, it's not worth it to argue preference. But saying that superfetch will equalize program starting and launching a new window is simply wrong. For small light-weight programs, this is true, but opening a program is much more than just dumping the preloaded files from memory into an active state. Large programs take 4-5 seconds to initialize and run through the program's start up routine. And even programs like firefox can take a second or so. It's not a huge deal, but those little awkward pauses when you're working on have to wait 3 seconds vs a fraction of a second really influence how well a computer just gets out of your way to let you work.
I can start multiple copies of Word or office in an instance. IE the same. AutoCAD takes a bit over 2 seconds, but I know to keep it minimized, I get to choose that.

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by jw12345 View Post
Regarding OEM's putting all the programs you need on your PC, you must be referring to the mounds of shovelware and trials they so kindly leave for you. Very rarely have I bought a PC that didn't need extensive uninstalling, downloading of third party programs, reinstalling. I've had a handful of PCs that I've had to wipe the drive the instant I got the machine because of how horrible it was (HP I'm lookin' at you.)
I've experienced both unreal crapware or decent usability. HP seems to be particularly bad, Dell somewhat less and Sony quite good.

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by jw12345 View Post
Quad-cores, you're right, apple doesn't offer them, but for most uses, they are of dubious benefits. Video encoding and manipulation is the exception, but the number of people I know who actually do heavy video work on a computer often enough that it would really matter are small. I know very few people with desktops of any sort nowadays honestly. I'm talking about what's best for most consumers. I don't believe that most consumers are doing things that necessitate a quad core processor.
Tell that to the guy using handbrake to encode video to different formats. Tell him your replacing his quad-core with a dual core. That won't go over very well. Everyone I know with a decent digital camera (SLR type) works with RAW format images, and a quad-core helps with manipulation. HP and Dell sell lots of quad-cores, so i think there's a market for them.

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by jw12345 View Post
And I've yet to see a dell that had nearly everything you'd ever need preinstalled. Just take a typical American teenager. IM? you'll sometimes have the ad-infested AIM client by the OEM there, but ichat is much better integrated (it's dead simple to do things like remote desktop through ichat with no setup) Music? itunes is the king right now. Mail? never seen as good as mail.app on the pc side preinstalled, and windows 7 is stripping out much of the MS versions. I don't trust budget PC OEMs to fill out the lineup. FFS my My last pc tablet was, straight out of the box, barely usable because of ads and trials, and wanted me to register for half a dozen things first boot. Name an OEM that includes no crapware, a solid suite for mail, calendar, internet, music, im, and ilife equivalents that are up to what is included in a mac.
I don't use chat, so i can't help you with chat software. Music, anything but iTunes. That has to be one of the most craptastic pieces of software on the PC. Mail. I like Live Mail. I've used Mail.app and don't see what's so cool. Live essentials are free, they are not included, but so what, the majority of e-mail users use web-based mail interfaces. Oh, and iLife isn't free, you have to pay for it as well, on top of getting hosed on the hardware you bought.


Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by jw12345 View Post
I'm sure you can find plenty of examples of how Apple can't fit certain scenarios, but what I'm getting at is the general populace of middle-class users who don't mind an extra $200 for design, use their notebooks for several hours a day for reports, college, business, presentations, internet, entertainment, etc. and need a quality notebook that doesn't have to be the fastest per dollar, but have a good all around experience from shopping for the computer to daily usage.
It's more than $200 on average. More like $500 to $800 on average. Those same people get far more choices in what they want on a non-apple laptop.

PhreePhly
My System SpecsSystem Spec
09 Jun 2009   #23
jw12345

Windows 7
 
 

It's a $100 discount, but it's possible to buy apple laptops from resellers for cheaper. I just mentioned the education deal, because it's actually cheaper than the equivalent spec dell with the touch, not to mention the very slick unibody design vs dell's design. It's not all about looks, though they are important. Many of these things have an impact on usability: too many LEDs distract when watching movies, plastic designs don't transport heat, keyboard flex makes it annoying to type, loud fans limit where the laptop can be used, unibody construction makes the notebook very easy to keep clean, etc.

I have a quad core, 8gb ram computer that dual boots windows 7 and os x, there's a noticeable difference in the instant window creation and starting a program. It's not huge for small programs, but it's absolutely there.

Again, I think the market for high power desktops is dying. You can cut video surprisingly well on an iMac, and since you mentioned Handbrake, which is one of my favorite mac/pc programs (and actually has a slicker mac interface), most encoding, even on a quad takes 20 minutes to several hours depending on what you are doing. Considering how few people routinely encode huge amounts of video that absolutely has to be done 30% faster, I stand by my point. Unless you do that kind of work a lot (in which case, they're more of a prosumer), a much smaller footprint but slightly slower computer might be a better option.

And iLife IS included free on every new mac. Upgrading, if you really want to, can be done pretty cheaply, esp if you get the family 5 pack. And it's pretty much a crapshoot if a pc will be loaded with garbage until you buy it. I've seen Sony laptops with just as much junk as HP (which again, my god, it's horrible. How are these people #1 right now? A friend of mine's HP laptop is so riddled with the stuff it takes several minutes to boot, and a few more just to gain control of the desktop. What is she supposed to do? A reinstall would help, but it's near impossible to get a disc LEGALLY that will install just windows and the drivers needed to make it usable.)

Find me an average laptop that's $800 cheaper than the mac equivalent. If you think you find one, you are almost definitely leaving out major features.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
.

09 Jun 2009   #24
PhreePhly

Windows 7 x64 (RTM via MSDN)
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by jw12345 View Post
It's a $100 discount, but it's possible to buy apple laptops from resellers for cheaper. I just mentioned the education deal, because it's actually cheaper than the equivalent spec dell with the touch, not to mention the very slick unibody design vs dell's design. It's not all about looks, though they are important. Many of these things have an impact on usability: too many LEDs distract when watching movies, plastic designs don't transport heat, keyboard flex makes it annoying to type, loud fans limit where the laptop can be used, unibody construction makes the notebook very easy to keep clean, etc.
You're missing the point. As the consumer, I have no choice on the Mac. I get what Apple offers, that's it. A great example, Apple just announced the new macbook lines, and they decided that people don't want expresscard slots, so instead, they will replace them with SD slots. WTF? If I need the express slot, and I want to buy a new macbook, my only choice is the 17" macbook that starts at $2500. I can get a $500 Dell with both the expresscard slot AND a SD card slot.

Apple can take their aluminium body and shove up their rear ends. Thanks for deciding for me that I don't need that express card slot for my audio gear, phone card, etc. This my problem with Apple. You are locked into their world. They will decide when USB, FireWire, Express Card, DVI, etc. are obsolete. You the user have no say.

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by jw12345 View Post
I have a quad core, 8gb ram computer that dual boots windows 7 and os x, there's a noticeable difference in the instant window creation and starting a program. It's not huge for small programs, but it's absolutely there.
I've got Word, Excel and PowerPoint setup on my Win 7 taskbar. As fast as I can click my center button, a new instance appears. I'm doing this on my Core 2 duo T9300 laptop (2.5 Ghz dual Core) and 4 GB RAM. Same with IE. I don't run firefox, so I don't know about it. AutoCAD takes a bit more time.

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by jw12345 View Post
Again, I think the market for high power desktops is dying. You can cut video surprisingly well on an iMac, and since you mentioned Handbrake, which is one of my favorite mac/pc programs (and actually has a slicker mac interface), most encoding, even on a quad takes 20 minutes to several hours depending on what you are doing. Considering how few people routinely encode huge amounts of video that absolutely has to be done 30% faster, I stand by my point. Unless you do that kind of work a lot (in which case, they're more of a prosumer), a much smaller footprint but slightly slower computer might be a better option.
You do realize that the quad-cores are fitting into some pretty small form factors. I'm not talking about huge towers here. I'm talking about a mini tower form factor with a quad-core processor, and no, those are not dying. And if I have a Handbrake script, and I'm looking to encode 4 or 5 feature length movies for a trip I'm taking, 30% faster is quite nice, especially when it doesn't really cost that much.

The studio slim desktop is:

Height: 37.79cm (14.9")
Width: 10.6cm (4.2")
Depth: 43.31cm (17.01")

and you can get it with a Q9650 (3.00 Ghz)processor, 8 GB RAM and a 1 TB (7200 rpm) HDD for $1250


Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by jw12345 View Post
And iLife IS included free on every new mac. Upgrading, if you really want to, can be done pretty cheaply, esp if you get the family 5 pack.

Find me an average laptop that's $800 cheaper than the mac equivalent. If you think you find one, you are almost definitely leaving out major features.
No, iLife is $49 on a new MacBook Pro. I just went to the apple site. I just priced a Dell Studio 15

2.66 Ghz processor, 4 GB RAM, 512 MB ATi HD 4570, backlit keyboard, 1080p screen, 9-cell battery $1274

Macbook pro 15 2.66 Ghz, 4 GB RAM, nVidia 9400M+nVidia 9600M GT 256 MB, backlit keyboard, 900p screen 7-hour battery (claimed) $1999

Not quite $800, but not very far. If I select a 900p screen on the Dell I am $750 cheaper.

PhreePhly
My System SpecsSystem Spec
09 Jun 2009   #25
jw12345

Windows 7
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by PhreePhly View Post
You're missing the point. As the consumer, I have no choice on the Mac. I get what Apple offers, that's it. A great example, Apple just announced the new macbook lines, and they decided that people don't want expresscard slots, so instead, they will replace them with SD slots. WTF? If I need the express slot, and I want to buy a new macbook, my only choice is the 17" macbook that starts at $2500. I can get a $500 Dell with both the expresscard slot AND a SD card slot.

Apple can take their aluminium body and shove up their rear ends. Thanks for deciding for me that I don't need that express card slot for my audio gear, phone card, etc. This my problem with Apple. You are locked into their world. They will decide when USB, FireWire, Express Card, DVI, etc. are obsolete. You the user have no say.



I've got Word, Excel and PowerPoint setup on my Win 7 taskbar. As fast as I can click my center button, a new instance appears. I'm doing this on my Core 2 duo T9300 laptop (2.5 Ghz dual Core) and 4 GB RAM. Same with IE. I don't run firefox, so I don't know about it. AutoCAD takes a bit more time.



You do realize that the quad-cores are fitting into some pretty small form factors. I'm not talking about huge towers here. I'm talking about a mini tower form factor with a quad-core processor, and no, those are not dying. And if I have a Handbrake script, and I'm looking to encode 4 or 5 feature length movies for a trip I'm taking, 30% faster is quite nice, especially when it doesn't really cost that much.

The studio slim desktop is:

Height: 37.79cm (14.9")
Width: 10.6cm (4.2")
Depth: 43.31cm (17.01")

and you can get it with a Q9650 (3.00 Ghz)processor, 8 GB RAM and a 1 TB (7200 rpm) HDD for $1250




No, iLife is $49 on a new MacBook Pro. I just went to the apple site. I just priced a Dell Studio 15

2.66 Ghz processor, 4 GB RAM, 512 MB ATi HD 4570, backlit keyboard, 1080p screen, 9-cell battery $1274

Macbook pro 15 2.66 Ghz, 4 GB RAM, nVidia 9400M+nVidia 9600M GT 256 MB, backlit keyboard, 900p screen 7-hour battery (claimed) $1999

Not quite $800, but not very far. If I select a 900p screen on the Dell I am $750 cheaper.

PhreePhly
You are confusing iWork for iLife, I believe. iLife has been free on every new mac for a very long time now.

Also, I get ~$1350 for that laptop (you forgot bluetooth, wireless n, and something else I guess?), but I do not believe the two to be equals. True, the studio 15 can be a hell of a good laptop, but: the graphics card you selected is slower, though not unreasonable, and the fact the the MBP has 2 graphics cards is not inconsequential. That's a huge advantage, when you consider that for much of the time when you aren't doing heavy work you can switch the lower power card, which according to anandtech's review of the 17", gives you 24% more battery. That's significant, even more so when you consider that the 15" should theoretically use less of the battery on the display, so graphics take up an even larger percent of the consumption. So that $650 gets you that, plus the aluminum unibody (very very nice compared to plastic), all of apple's touches like magsafe, ambient light sensor, giant multiouch touchpad, a bettery that doesn't stick out and lift up the entire notebook, displayport which is undoubtably where the future is, less weight, less thickness, a battery that should last triple that cycles than the dell (and if you keep the notebook for a while, you're almost guaranteed to have to buy the dell battery replacement at $200 each!) I could keep going without even talking about just general aesthetics. These are not equals.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
09 Jun 2009   #26
PhreePhly

Windows 7 x64 (RTM via MSDN)
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by jw12345 View Post
You are confusing iWork for iLife, I believe. iLife has been free on every new mac for a very long time now.

Also, I get $1300 for that laptop (you forgot bluetooth), but I do not believe the two to be equals. True, the studio 15 can be a hell of a good laptop, but: the graphics card you selected is slower, though not unreasonable, and the fact the the MBP has 2 graphics cards is not inconsequential. That's a huge advantage, when you consider that for much of the time when you aren't doing heavy work you can switch the lower power card, which according to anandtech's review of the 17", gives you 24% more battery. That's significant, even more so when you consider that the 15" should theoretically use less of the battery on the display, so graphics take up an even larger percent of the consumption. So that $700 gets you that, plus the aluminum unibody (very very nice compared to plastic), all of apple's touches like magsafe, ambient light sensor, giant multiouch touchpad, a bettery that doesn't stick out and lift up the entire notebook, displayport which is undoubtably where the future is, less weight, less thickness, a battery that should last triple that cycles than the dell (and if you keep the notebook for a while, you're almost guaranteed to have to buy the dell battery replacement at $200 each!) I could keep going without even going into just general aesthetics. These are not equals.
That $700 is a third of the overall price. For the general consumer, these two are equal. You keep talking about the general consumer, well $700 isn't chump change for the general consumer.

All you are talking about is aesthetics. The battery cycle is highly dependent upon use. My wife's inspiron battery lasted 4 years, and i replaced it with a non-dell replacement for $65. I am highly suspect of Apples battery claims, especially given the fact the the battery is non replacable. I've got to go to an Apple store or send it in to replace my battery.

The mag-safe plug has been involved in a number of fire-related cases, and I would rather avoid it. And display port is hilaroius, only Apple is pushing it and in order to use on any current HD TV, you need a converter to use HDMI. Also, the Dell has eSATA, an 8 in 1 card reader plus an expresscard port.

These lappy's are more than comparable and the Dell is $700 cheaper (30%) than the mac.

I saw your edit above. If I add wireless N and bluetooth, I get $1314 for the Dell (still with a 1080p screen).

From the configuration page:

My Components
Genuine Windows Vista® Home Premium Edition, 32-bit SP1

Intel® Core™ 2 Duo T9550 (2.66GHz/1066Mhz FSB/6MB cache)

Microsoft Works

1Yr Ltd Warranty and Mail-In Service

15.6” Full High Definition (1080p) High Brightness LED Display with TrueLife™ and Camera

4GB Shared Dual Channel DDR2 at 800MHz

Size: 320GB SATA Hard Drive (5400RPM)

512MB ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4570

8X Slot Load Super Multi (DL DVD+/-R Drive + RAM support)

Intel® WiFi Link 5100 802.11agn Half Mini-Card


Dell Wireless 370 Bluetooth Internal (2.1)

85 WHr Lithium Ion Battery (9 cell)

High Definition Audio 2.0

Back-lit Keyboard

Black Chainlink








PhreePhly
My System SpecsSystem Spec
Reply

Thread Tools



Our Sites

Site Links

About Us

Find Us

Windows 7 Forums is an independent web site and has not been authorized, sponsored, or otherwise approved by Microsoft Corporation. "Windows 7" and related materials are trademarks of Microsoft Corp.

© Designer Media Ltd

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 20:59.
Twitter Facebook Google+ Seven Forums iOS App Seven Forums Android App