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Windows 7: Infinite Application Data

02 Nov 2009   #21
seekermeister

W7x64 Pro, SuSe 12.1/** W7 x64 Pro, XP MCE
 
 

logicearth

I logged in as Administrator before I read you last post, and ran the installation of Opera 10.01 to a separate folder than I had with 10. Rather than it popping an error about not being able to find the installer, it completed the installation normally.

I'm still having a problem finding the program files that go into Documents and Settings, because the only place where it seems to have any Opera locations is in my username account, but I'm still digging around.

At this point, it appears that the problems are limited to the user account, rather than the OS in general. If that is true, it would be alot easier to delete the account, and creat another, rather than starting from scratch.


My System SpecsSystem Spec
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02 Nov 2009   #22
zBobG

XP SP3 32bit, Vista HP 64bit, Seven Pro 64bit
 
 
Junctions

There is a good MS article (a very long read) that describes some of the functions and features of junctions and why they are designed as they are: Managing Roaming User Data.

As to the OP: Yes, use 'run as Admin', that's almost always the most uncomplicated method of installing something. You will almost always get an option of installing for a (particular) single user if that's what you intended.

files that go into Documents and Settings: Are you talking about configuration files and that kind of stuff? In Vista and Seven I think those files should be in a (Opera?) folder in: Users/<user>/Documents/...

The rest is somewhat off topic:
Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by logicearth View Post
Junctions are far more useful then backwards support.

It is not junctions that are broken, it is your understanding. No offense.
I never said junctions were not useful, I did say they were broken. How you can consider
.../Application Data/
.../Application Data/Application Data/
.../Application Data/Application Data/Application Data/
and so on as not broken is beyond my understanding.

Quote:
And it has everything to do with permissions. Because the default permission that is set on the junctions for backwards support, have one and only one permission that gives the Access Denied. Everyone, DENY, List folder / read data. As long as this permission is set, not even the super powerful SYSTEM account gets access.
This is of course from the point of view of the user viewing the folders. It's not a problem that you don't have access, it's a problem when you SEE the duplicated folders regardless whether you can enable access. Yes, I can change permissions and access the files in any of those folders and, yes, I realize that the files are 'virtualized'. I just don't think it's useful to see 8 'duplicates' of a folder and all its 'duplicate' files. And, yes, once you are aware of what is going on a user can just ignore the 'duplicates'.

The relevant problem is that programs are stupid, they cannot ignore the 'duplicates'. A program does not ordinarily distinguish a junction from a 'real' folder. Really off topic: I know of no simple way of programmatically determining if a folder is really a junction.

Quote:
If your applications choke when they reach an Access Denied then your applications are the ones that are broken. In programming it is called error handling.
My applications have no trouble with ACCESS DENIED, they simply assume the folder (or file) is not there. Rather the problem is the 'duplicates' seen when access is allowed particularly when running in admin mode which is a common method for running a maintenance program or installer.

And, yes, there are simple (and not so simple) programmatic workarounds for this issue. The very word 'workaround' is proof that junctions can be described as borked. Note that I did not say 'not useful'.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
02 Nov 2009   #23
logicearth

Windows 10 Pro (x64)
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by zBobG View Post
I never said junctions were not useful, I did say they were broken. How you can consider
.../Application Data/
.../Application Data/Application Data/
.../Application Data/Application Data/Application Data/
and so on as not broken is beyond my understanding.
That doesn't make it broken, as it is doing exactly as it is suppose to do. To stop infinite loops like that it was given a specific DENY permission on Everyone. A Junction points to a target location, this is done at the file system level if the junction points back at its parent it will of course see itself just like it should. NOT BROKEN.

Quote:
My applications have no trouble with ACCESS DENIED, they simply assume the folder (or file) is not there. Rather the problem is the 'duplicates' seen when access is allowed particularly when running in admin mode which is a common method for running a maintenance program or installer.
Running in Admin mode? Something is wrong with your system or you are referring to other junctions. Because the permission applied to the default junctions prevents everything from accessing it. The whole point of junctions is not to know they are junctions, otherwise what would be the point? They must act and be folders.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
.

03 Nov 2009   #24
MacGyvr

Windows 7 Ultimate RTM (Technet)
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by seekermeister View Post
reinstall...yes, but if I don't know the whys, I'm going to continue to have problems because I must change some permissions to make my computer behave as I require. I will be much more careful about any changes that I make, especially in regards to the use of Take Ownership with junctions, but one way or another I will get what I want.
You have not yet explained what it is that you want that you think you have to change permissions to get.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
03 Nov 2009   #25
rsvr85

Windows 7 Ultimate x64
 
 

I experienced exactly the same through taking ownership of it, any executable/installer i tried to run, failed. The only fix i found was a complete reinstall.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
04 Nov 2009   #26
zBobG

XP SP3 32bit, Vista HP 64bit, Seven Pro 64bit
 
 
User Won't See Folders

This is a possible solution to the user seeing the 'duplicate' folders (i.e. Application Data) when the user does not want to see those folders.

In Control Panel->Folder Options on the View tab, checkmark "Hide protected operating system files". This will hide all the 'duplicated' folders from the user, it WILL NOT however hide those folders from a program such as a maintenance utility or installer.

I don't know if helps anything at all, but for the casual user (or wannabe geek) it should help to reduce some user confusion.

You will get "Access denied" if you try to click those 'duplicate' folders until you take ownership of them. Doing that solves no problems so it is not recommended. I assume if you had taken ownership and that that caused problems you could return the permissions back to "System" only although I haven't tried that.

I believe there is also a "Reset Permissions" procedure in the tutorial section on this website and also on the VistaForums website.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
04 Nov 2009   #27
seekermeister

W7x64 Pro, SuSe 12.1/** W7 x64 Pro, XP MCE
 
 

zBobG,

The only thing that particularly caught my eye in your post was that regarding "Reset Permissions", but a search of that section found nothing. If it is there, it must be under a title without those words. Could you provide a link?
My System SpecsSystem Spec
04 Nov 2009   #28
zBobG

XP SP3 32bit, Vista HP 64bit, Seven Pro 64bit
 
 
Default Permissions

Here is a MS article about resetting default permissions, be sure to read the warning about halfway down the page.

I could not find anything either in the Vista or Seven tutorial pages for a global reset, so either I misremember (very likely) or I was thinking of resetting to Admin only status for a particular folder - that might work though when used on the parent <user> folder.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
04 Nov 2009   #29
seekermeister

W7x64 Pro, SuSe 12.1/** W7 x64 Pro, XP MCE
 
 

Thanks, but that sounds a bit too risky to me, even if it applied to W7, but it doesn't. It doesn't even include all versions of XP or Vista. If I have greater problems than I do now, I may give it a shot, but since I started using the Administrator account, my previous issues seem to have disappeared. When in the right paradigm, I'm going to delete the effected user account and recreat it.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
09 Jun 2010   #30
flemur13013

Windows 7 Ultimate
 
 
Application data\Application Data easy solution.

"Application data\Application Data\..." broken? Yes, it's broken, but it's called "works as designed" and the design is stupid.

I solved the recursive "Application Data" problems by simply deleting the first duplicate "Application Data" folder (junction) wherever it appeared.* Everything works fine, including lots of XP programs/installs. I did create a restore point first, tho.

*FWIW, if you have problems doing this with "Windows Explorer", try the "FreeCommander" file browser and its "Find" command.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
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 Infinite Application Data




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