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#1
Need help understanding Windows NTFS permissions
I'm not sure if this is the correct forum, but none of the others looked specific to this. And I apologise that I may not be asking the right questions - it is difficult for me to even understand what is niggling at me, because I don't understand what my OS is doing sometimes. I'll try and highlight questions in bold as they occur to me, the kind of things that will help me to understand how my PC (OS) works.
Okay, that said, here's my setup. I have always been the only user on my PC. Just one PC, one person.
My understanding, going back to my first 486, is that a Windows PC is made up of a formatted hard drive (Fat32 or - later - NTFS format, which affect how big a file can be, and compatibility with other operating systems), and a load of files, which generally have an extension which determines what it does. Files can be programs (.exe, .bat) or collections of non-executable data that need a program to understand (.txt, .docx, .mp3). Because they're just all files, there should be no problem backing them up, transferring them to another PC and so on.
I think my problems began when I moved from Windows XP to Windows 7 in 2012, but it is hard to remember back for sure. Let's assume I'm right. I was generally happy with Windows 7, it was definitely more stable, though Windows Explorer seemed more packed with options I didn't want to use and couldn't hide (Libraries, Homegroup, a computer name, Control Panel etc - I just wanted C:, D: etc, and maybe the "Favorites" which is quite handy).
The problem I ran in to was when restoring or backing up files to an external drive. My synchronisation software was failing on some files. There seemed to be a lot of files where I got a red 'Access is Denied' message. They weren't encrypted or read-only, and used to transfer okay on Windows XP (they were just things like MP3 files).
I looked into it and it was all sorts of complicated stuff to do with a Security tab on each file, which displayed a list of "Group or user names" (none of which I recognised or had ever consciously chosen) each of which had different permission levels (again, which I had never set or changed). I had to fiddle about with that before the files could be moved or backed up. I spent ages trying to unravel it - again, it is hard to know what questions to ask, and who to ask them of. To my mind they should just be backed up or restored with no problems. I hadn't changed anything. I tracked it down to some silly Win7 permissions on the external hard drive, not letting files be written over or deleted in some cases. I changed the Users permissions to all the main categories, applied it to subfolders, and it then worked. It was annoyingly complicated though, and I hadn't known switching to Windows 7 would involve all these sorts of headaches.
I had another problem with some software. One bit of MP3 tagging software gave this error every time I ran it: "Error opening undo file" (then a path). When I clicked on ok it worked, but I had no idea what the error was. Eventually I fixed it by changing the permissions for the folder, giving full permissions to everyone.
I didn't understand the permissions/rights/groups things, and couldn't work out how to disable them - I just wanted them to be files, that anyone could use and access, as before. Maybe those features are useful to some people, such as power users (I'm just guessing), but for me, I just want a file. Maybe the option to make it read-only to prevent accidental deletion (which I sometimes did on Windows 3.1) could be handy, but I could even live without that.
I've never fully understood where all that stuff comes from; what the implications are (though it seems to affect backing up the files sometimes); whether I can delete it all or reset it. So first question: can I turn off whatever feature this is which is putting restrictions on what I can do with my files?
[I will summarise all the questions again at the end and number them]
I also wanted to know where the problems with permissions are coming from. One possibility is with files from different places/people? Are they coming with "owners" that aren't me, and causing problems?
Or could it be related to the PC name? For example, I reinstall Windows from time to time. I have to enter a name or something (I can't remember if it is meant to be me or for the PC) - there are no guidance notes at the time to indicate it is important. Since I don't know what it is used for I don't use my real name in case that somehow affects security/privacy/online anonymity, so I just type any old thing in such as "NA" or "NONE". But does that then somehow mean files belong to "NA", and when I next reinstall the OS and call my PC "NONE" Windows somehow thinks they are no longer my files on the backup drive?
Removing the stuff about security/ownership/permissions/rights/groups (I don't know if those are the same thing or not). Is there any way to disable this feature totally? For users in my position it just seems to cause problems.
Also, where is the information about security/ownership/permissions/rights/groups actually held? i.e. is it held in the registry, which has an index of all files and stores this information? [Implication: reinstalling Windows wipes it and lest you start afresh; the original files such as music, documents etc are untouched and pristine]. Or is the information added to the file itself (.mp3, .doc etc) as extra data/metadata even though I don't want that? [Implications: files bloat with unwanted data; files secretly accrue more and more weird "ownership/security" data over the years; possibly cause problems in the future if I move to another OS and try to use the files, or email one to someone?]
If the data is added to files themselves, is there any way to strip it all back out and reset them? Some software or command I can run that strips out all that extra Windows permission and makes the files just basic files again?
One place online seemed to suggest that the security/ownership/permissions/rights/groups data only exists due to NTFS, and that is as much of a factor as Windows 7. Is that true? If my drives were FAT32 rather than NTFS would that strip all the security metadata out of the files? Or would it leave the metadata there, but just ignore it (so right-click>properties on a file would no longer show Sharing/Security tabs, but the info would still be in the file somewhere, bloating it, but just invisibly?)
Do all versions of Windows 7 have this security/ownership/permissions/rights/groups stuff, or just Windows 7 Ultimate? Would life be easier if I bought a more basic version of Windows 7?
If I wanted an OS which doesn't use the security/ownership/permissions/rights/groups stuff, what are my options? Any other versions of Windows I could use? Linux? And will the security on my files cause problems if I move to another Windows OS, or Linux?
Sorry: to techie people this might all be clear, but as someone who just wants to create, copy and back up files (whether they are Word docs, photos, games or music) all the permissions stuff seems horrendously complicated. I'm doing my best to think back and try to clarify what I understand so you can see what a simple computer user thinks, though even my terminology might be incorrect. Basically there is all this security/ownership/permissions/rights/groups stuff - whenever I mention one of these things I mean them all - in my mind they're basically all related to an extra layer of restrictions applied to files. An unwanted layer, in my case, and one which I was never warned was part of upgrading from Windows XP (I wish the Windows 7 installer had explained some of this).
Lastly, I have read a lot on these topics. And I don't really understand them any better, because they all begin with assumptions which I can't fathom. If I can't get simple answers to my questions above, is there anything really simple I can read to understand what is going on, what the implications are, and how to manage it?
Sorry for the long message. One thing Windows doesn't do well is explain actually how it works, and what it is doing in the background in areas like this. It annoys me that it is so complicated, and I'm saddled a feature I can't seem to turn off or understand the implications of. I am not even sure what questions to ask. When I Google things to do with file ownership and security and Windows it is way too advanced to me, and misses out on the fundamental explanation of what is going on - it just raises more questions.
I'll summarise my questions without all of the explanation, and number them in case that helps if anyone want to tackle one but not the others.
1. can I turn off whatever feature this is which is putting restrictions on what I can do with my files?
2. I also wanted to know where the problems with permissions are coming from. One possibility is with files from different places/people? Are they coming with "owners" that aren't me, and causing problems?
Or could it be related to the PC name? For example, I reinstall Windows from time to time. I have to enter a name or something (I can't remember if it is meant to be me or for the PC) - there are no guidance notes at the time to indicate it is important. Since I don't know what it is used for I don't use my real name in case that somehow affects security/privacy/online anonymity, so I just type any old thing in such as "NA" or "NONE". But does that then somehow mean files belong to "NA", and when I next reinstall the OS and call my PC "NONE" Windows somehow thinks they are no longer my files on the backup drive?
3. Removing the stuff about security/ownership/permissions/rights/groups (I don't know if those are the same thing or not). Is there any way to disable this feature totally?
4. Also, where is the information about security/ownership/permissions/rights/groups actually held? i.e. is it held in the registry, which has an index of all files and stores this information? [Implication: reinstalling Windows wipes it and lest you start afresh; the original files such as music, documents etc are untouched and pristine].
5. Or is the information added to the file itself (.mp3, .doc etc) as extra data/metadata even though I don't want that? [Implications: files bloat with unwanted data; files secretly accrue more and more weird "ownership/security" data over the years; possibly cause problems in the future if I move to another OS and try to use the files, or email one to someone?]
6. If the data is added to files themselves, is there any way to strip it all back out and reset them? Some software or command I can run that strips out all that extra Windows permission and makes the files just basic files again?
7. One place online seemed to suggest that the security/ownership/permissions/rights/groups data only exists due to NTFS, and that is as much of a factor as Windows 7. Is that true? If my drives were FAT32 rather than NTFS would that strip all the security metadata out of the files? Or would it leave the metadata there, but just ignore it (so right-click>properties on a file would no longer show Sharing/Security tabs, but the info would still be in the file somewhere, bloating it, but just invisibly?)
8. Do all versions of Windows 7 have this security/ownership/permissions/rights/groups stuff, or just Windows 7 Ultimate? Would life be easier if I bought a more basic version of Windows 7?
9. If I wanted an OS which doesn't use the security/ownership/permissions/rights/groups stuff, what are my options? Any other versions of Windows I could use? Linux? And will the security on my files cause problems if I move to another Windows OS, or Linux?
10. Lastly, I have read a lot on these topics. And I don't really understand them any better, because they all begin with assumptions which I can't fathom. If I can't get simple answers to my questions above, is there anything really simple I can read to understand what is going on, what the implications are, and how to manage it?