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Windows 7: Why use "Libraries" when you dont know where the files are located ?

12 Dec 2016   #11
ThrashZone

Win-7-Pro64bit 7-H-Prem-64bit
 
 

Hi,
Some programs do insert some folders in the public area which to is pretty annoying
For me CorelDraw 6 & Chasy's Draw and even NVidia does for some odd reason


My System SpecsSystem Spec
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12 Dec 2016   #12
AddRAM

Windows 7 Pro x64 Windows 10 Pro x64
 
 

You have to delete the public folders, I do.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
12 Dec 2016   #13
DonMurray

 

Im trying to understand what a junction is for sure. I guess im not understanding. In the program JLM I see a junction link and a destination It would seam I should be able to find the destination The users\public\ exists but no documents foler exists there. see "confusion one.jpg"
Then I tried to browes to the junction link users programdata\documents and we have the famouse pesky lock NOT accessible. access is denied. see photo "confusion2.jpg"
So it must be the actual existing folder is the junction link and the destination is ? or I dont get it


Attached Thumbnails
Why use "Libraries" when you dont know where the files are located ?-confusion-one-.jpg   Why use "Libraries" when you dont know where the files are located ?-confusion2.jpg  
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13 Dec 2016   #14
Callender

Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit 7601 Multiprocessor Free Service Pack 1
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by DonMurray View Post
So I installed that little program JLM to see, I made print screens of the results.
I see that I am locked out of the junction link and I can not find the destination. See Confusion 2.jpg
and then confusionone.jpg shows that I dont find a destination.

Why is there a lock on the junction folder ??
What folders actually exist and what folders actually are just faux folders. ?
See explanation here:

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by whocares View Post
To whom it may concern:

If you understand Junctions, Hard Links, and Symbolic Links, please disregard.

If you do not understand these, I would highly recommend leaving them alone. You also need to understand the Security permissions for them and the reason Microsoft used them.

(Windows 7 x86 or 64-bit)

Junctions, Hard Links, and Symbolic Links are pointers to other objects, and these objects include Junctions, Hard Links, and Symbolic Links. In Windows Explorer (file manager), there is no indication if a folder is actually a folder or a Junction. A Junction can point to an actual folder, and that folder can include a Junction that points to another folder. (I think a Junction can point to another Junction, but I may be wrong.) Deleting a Junction will only delete the pointer, but copying a Junction will paste a copy of the actual folder. Hard Links and Symbolic Links work differently. One or both will delete the actual folder when it is deleted. If you want more information, Google Hard Links and/or Symbolic Links.

Junctions, Hard Links, and Symbolic Links are quite useful, but you need to understand how they work. I believe that the Windows "Libraries" use these, or something similar. For example, you could create your own Library as a folder on your Desktop. These are functionally equivalent to the actual folders, and an application will not know that it is not using the actual folder. Some applications store data in their "C:\Program Files\" directory, but using a Junction you could change where it stores its data.

One problem that can arise is creating a folder st the actual location. A Junction for "C:\Program Files\Some Game\Saved Games\" could point to "D:\All Games\Some Game\Saves\". If for some reason an actual folder was created in the original folder, it can cause problems. If an actual folder is created in the "C:\Program Files\Some Game\Saved Games\" directory, strange things can happen. You could have a Junction for "C:\Program Files\Some Game\Saved Games\" and a folder "C:\Program Files\Some Game\Saved Games\New Folder". If I am not mistaken, these will be presented as the same location. This is similar to the Windows Start Menu.

With Windows 7, Microsoft decided to cleanup some of the older locations for certain folders. Among these is "My Documents". Some Applications have hard-coded the path based upon older Windows versions. Using Junctions allows these Applications to think they are writing and reading from the original location. Some Applications will "walk the tree" to determine the location, and they can inadvertently create a folder in the original location. In order to keep this from occurring, Microsoft set certain Security permissions on these Junctions ("List folder" and "Traverse folder"). The "Trusted Installer" is the Owner, and taking Ownership from this user is difficult but not impossible. This was done to keep Users from "breaking" the file structure. Windows Explorer is an Application, and therefore, it cannot "List folder" to display the contents.

The multiple folders arise because a Junction may point to folder that has a Junction(s) that eventually points back to the original folder. Also, an actual folder may have been created in the location the first Junction is re-mapping. The result is that they regress on themselves. This is similar to two mirrors pointing at each other or a TV camera showing a TV set with the picture from the camera.

To my knowledge, Microsoft has not documented this in one place. In order to learn this, I had to do a lot of Googling and reading. Some of these things are in the Developer documentation and other things are "Tribal Knowledge". I was trying to move my "Users" folder from the "C:\Users\" to "D:\UserFiles\", and I was determined to do it. Contrary to the usual answer, it IS possible, but it is NOT easy. I did it, and it worked. I reverted back because I missed something somewhere, and folders were being created in the re-mapped locations.

(I also replaced the HAL which is impossible according to Microsoft. It is doable but not pleasant.)

I did not go into this detail in my original reply because you really should plan to reinstall or restore a disk image. I do not know if System Restore will replace the original file structure (Junctions and permissions), but restoring from a backup will not. Somewhere down the road, you are going to have stranger things happening, and you will reinstall Windows. At this point, you should image your disk because you may not have gotten all your data, and this will allow you to find it.

Finally, you should do some research before using a utility like JunctionBox. There are a lot of ramifications to making these changes. The "Take Ownership" utility is another one to be used with caution. The above is not a definitive explanation. That would take more time than I am willing to expend.

This is not a flame - just an observation. If you cannot find a System utility like JunctionBox by Googling it, you really should not be using it.

---
I did not intend for you to download that software and somehow managed to leave the name of the software in the screenshot.
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13 Dec 2016   #15
Pyprohly

Windows 10, Windows 8.1 Pro, Windows 7 Professional, OS X El Capitan
 
 

It’s unfortunate that you’ve been introduced to two very different, unrelated concepts at once such that it all seems interlinked into one unified plane of ideas. If you wish to gain a firm understanding of the concepts of ‘desktop.ini’ files and junctions you must consider their function and roles separately. We have explained quite a bit for you already, now you must combine the pieces. Unfortunately, some of the most valuable information has probably become buried in a haze of information.

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by DonMurray View Post
So it must be the actual existing folder is the junction link and the destination is ? or I dont get it
Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by DonMurray View Post
What folders actually exist and what folders actually are just faux folders. ?
Here I would go on to explain how you could identify these “faux folders” as it is something of a conjecture we’ve seemingly raised specifically for you to take for granted at the moment, but I’m not convinced you’ve absorbed everything that has been said given the way you have phased this question. Namely, it appears your understanding of desktop.ini files are more the concern.

From before,
Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Pyprohly View Post
Along with the ability of providing a personalised folder icon, [desktop.ini files] can also be used to configure a folder’s display name, masking the true name. Windows Explorer makes predominate use of these.
Let us recap that some folder names as seen in Windows Explorer can put on a facade and lie about their display name. This is due to the effect of a configuration file in the folder, ‘desktop.ini’. They’re typically hidden, so type the path of the file into the address bar if you’re curious about their contents.

Junction points, they’re nothing more than linking mechanisms. I don’t want to have to say any more than I have already; all you need to know about junctions is detailed here. I’ve made some adjustments to the info text so things should be clearer.

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by DonMurray View Post
Why is there a lock on the junction folder ??
I recently explained their purpose in another thread... namely, your previous thread. Btw, I’m I going to get a reply?


@Callender That’s excessive. Here’s the original post in context. @Whocares was quite knowledgeable and is for the most part accurate, though he did deviate from practicality at times.

That thread was an absolute mess.
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13 Dec 2016   #16
DonMurray

 

I have read everything all the links and such.
I understand that Desktop ini can redifine identify of a folder making it out to be named in a way that is compatible with old programs.
I need to pin down one fact so I can build apon it. Just so I can tell my brain that this one fact is true for sure. A fact I can build on. I think the JLM program will help me learn. I am thinking I can use it to get to know my computer better. I may not use it to change anything but it will help me identify what is what and then I can use that knowlege to further unravle some of this.
Just so I know for sure for a actual fact The program has two columbs one is JUNCTION LINK the other is Destination
I would assume that the folders under the columb junction link are not the real names of the folders. And in the Destination columb the folders in that columb are the real names of the folders. Am I correct about this. ?
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13 Dec 2016   #17
Barman58

Windows 10 Pro x64 x2 Windows 10 Enterprise x64, Ubuntu
 
 

You still appear to be confusing the use of Desktop.ini and the use of Junctions. These are to totally unrelated things

The desktop.ini file changes the properties of a folder, it's name presented in File explorer, it's icon etc - there is only ever one folder involved, the one that contains the hidden / system file "desktop.ini"

--------------------

Symbolic links, (junctions) are a special type of shortcut. used in many operating systems. a symbolic link is used to provide a transparent link from one location to another. This is mostly used in windows to "fool" old programs which were incorrectly coded to use a specific location and not use a system variable which is the correct way - For Example - the Junction is used to enable a program written for XP to find the new location for "Documents & settings" which is now in a different location.

As the junction is a transparent normal file and folder functions do not work so although the junction is working and the program gives no error, an attempt to check the folder gives an error. opening a junction actually opens the target folder

There are always two locations involved with a junction The phantom folder that is the actual junction and the target folder that contains the files
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13 Dec 2016   #18
Callender

Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit 7601 Multiprocessor Free Service Pack 1
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by DonMurray View Post
Im trying to understand what a junction is for sure. I guess im not understanding. In the program JLM I see a junction link and a destination It would seam I should be able to find the destination The users\public\ exists but no documents foler exists there.

Then I tried to browes to the junction link users programdata\documents and we have the famouse pesky lock NOT accessible. access is denied.
Okay to put it in a simple way - you should not have access to those locked folders and that is the way it should be by design.

If you want to know what is in C:\ProgramData\Documents - it actually points to C:\Users\Public\Documents so that is where you should look.
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14 Dec 2016   #19
ThrashZone

Win-7-Pro64bit 7-H-Prem-64bit
 
 

Hi,
Most of the lock symbols I've noticed are actually the win-7 default administrator account not my administrator account so possibly that is what is throwing you off ?
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14 Dec 2016   #20
margrave

Windows 10 x64
 
 

Simple solution: don't use them.
We got these beginning with Windows 7 (or maybe Vista?):
- My Documents
- My Music
- My Pictures
- My Shapes
- My Videos
I never use them. I don't organize things the way Microsoft wants me to. So I just ignore those folders. If they contain anything at all it's because an app put them there. Which is fine if such app knows and cares.

But my stuff lies elsewhere, so the OP's problem never exists for me. Simple.
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 Why use "Libraries" when you dont know where the files are located ?




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