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Windows 7: Windows 7 awkward feel, missing WinXP, need advice

11 Apr 2010   #51
severedsolo

Windows 7 Ultimate X64 SP1
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by zzz2496 View Post

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by pparks1 View Post
Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by zzz2496 View Post
Woops, sorry... here's what you can try... open "Device Manager" or "Computer Management" with and without UAC (both will invoke UAC prompt). For applications that is behaving "properly", those won't slow down. I access this kind of subsystems all the time, so I benefit a lot from disabling UAC. Opening "Computer Management" never felt this fast.
Thanks for giving me something tangible that I could test.

Here was the test that I performed. On my laptop (Dell E6400 with Intel Core 2 Duo P8600 at 2.40Ghz with 4GB of RAM running Windows 32-bit Enterprise), I turned off the machine. I started my stop watch from the time that I hit the power button. I waited until exactly 2 minutes before I clicked on the Start Orb, then right clicked on My Computer and choose Manage. This gave the machine time to boot and get services started etc. I then ran the test 3 times with UAC on and 3 times with it off. Here are the results averaged.

Avg time with UAC enabled : 2:14.43
Avg time with UAC turned off: 2:13.85

So, there was a difference...albeit small.
Err.. I forgot to mention, the 64bit version... I use the 64bit. The 32bit version is somewhat faster, I don't know what MS did in the 64bit, but it's slower in 64 than 32. By the way, we should stop before OT warning...

zzz2496
im using Win 7 Ultimate X64, as i said no noticable difference, slow machine (compared to yours) admittedly i didnt use a stopwatch, but then honestly who sits there with a stopwatch in front of their pc constantly? i think it would point to the problem being with your PC and not UAC


My System SpecsSystem Spec
.
11 Apr 2010   #52
pparks1

Windows 7 Ultimate x64
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by severedsolo View Post
i didnt use a stopwatch, but then honestly who sits there with a stopwatch in front of their pc constantly? i think it would point to the problem being with your PC and not UAC
HaHa....that's me. The one with the stopwatch. While I don't have it there constantly, whenever I try out tweaks or otherwise intended to improve performance I put them through a timing test to see if it's really all that different or not. You would be surprised how many people "feel" a difference but when under a stopwatch cannot "prove" that improvement that they are certain that is there.

This practice comes from a force of habit out of work experiences. I came from a software company that had developers and then everybody else. When people would whine and complain about new machines versus old machines and who should get what...I often just time tested everything and benchmarked it all to show what was and wasn't happening. It proved quite valuable to me. Pretty much whenever we got a new machine in, it came to me and I ran it through the test platform and made the baseline report for the machine.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
11 Apr 2010   #53
whs
Microsoft MVP

Vista, Windows7, Mint Mate, Zorin, Windows 8
 
 

Here is an interesting article on UAC virtualization. There is a Part2 link on the bottom of the page. Protecting System Files with UAC Virtualization (Part 1)
My System SpecsSystem Spec
.

11 Apr 2010   #54
zzz2496

Windows7 Ultimate 64bit
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by severedsolo View Post
Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by zzz2496 View Post

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by pparks1 View Post

Thanks for giving me something tangible that I could test.

Here was the test that I performed. On my laptop (Dell E6400 with Intel Core 2 Duo P8600 at 2.40Ghz with 4GB of RAM running Windows 32-bit Enterprise), I turned off the machine. I started my stop watch from the time that I hit the power button. I waited until exactly 2 minutes before I clicked on the Start Orb, then right clicked on My Computer and choose Manage. This gave the machine time to boot and get services started etc. I then ran the test 3 times with UAC on and 3 times with it off. Here are the results averaged.

Avg time with UAC enabled : 2:14.43
Avg time with UAC turned off: 2:13.85

So, there was a difference...albeit small.
Err.. I forgot to mention, the 64bit version... I use the 64bit. The 32bit version is somewhat faster, I don't know what MS did in the 64bit, but it's slower in 64 than 32. By the way, we should stop before OT warning...

zzz2496
im using Win 7 Ultimate X64, as i said no noticable difference, slow machine (compared to yours) admittedly i didnt use a stopwatch, but then honestly who sits there with a stopwatch in front of their pc constantly? i think it would point to the problem being with your PC and not UAC
Well, we all use our machine differently. Mine is running almost like a server load, with around 90 processes started upon start up. This is not regular workload. Several of them are Apache web server, several database servers, and 2 virtual machines running on idle. When I work, around 140 processes registered in Task Manager, 30 - 40 windows open at any given time and connection from many hosts over several VPN connections querying my database servers... So I need every bit of performance I can get from this old machine... I prefer to give the performance to my server processes than to UAC

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by pparks1 View Post
Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by severedsolo View Post
i didnt use a stopwatch, but then honestly who sits there with a stopwatch in front of their pc constantly? i think it would point to the problem being with your PC and not UAC
HaHa....that's me. The one with the stopwatch. While I don't have it there constantly, whenever I try out tweaks or otherwise intended to improve performance I put them through a timing test to see if it's really all that different or not. You would be surprised how many people "feel" a difference but when under a stopwatch cannot "prove" that improvement that they are certain that is there.

This practice comes from a force of habit out of work experiences. I came from a software company that had developers and then everybody else. When people would whine and complain about new machines versus old machines and who should get what...I often just time tested everything and benchmarked it all to show what was and wasn't happening. It proved quite valuable to me. Pretty much whenever we got a new machine in, it came to me and I ran it through the test platform and made the baseline report for the machine.
Have to agree on the stopwatch comment
My System SpecsSystem Spec
11 Apr 2010   #55
Corrine

Windows 7 & Windows Vista Ultimate
 
 

Whew! Nick2, your head must be spinning with all this information. I'm going to add another bit of reading for you -- something I think will help you in the transition from XP to Windows 7. Andre DaCosta, recently awarded Microsoft MVP, prepared a quick guide with side-by-side image comparisons to help new Windows 7 users become familiar with some of the changes and benefits of Windows 7. See Andre's article in For the 'former' Windows XP User - Welcome to Windows 7!

I'm certain between the tutorials here and all the Windows 7 converts, you will get any questions answered -- and then some!

Good luck and enjoy your new computer.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
11 Apr 2010   #56
zzz2496

Windows7 Ultimate 64bit
 
 

Anyway, rather than relying on UAC (which then involves sandboxing, virtualization, and god knows what other checking in place), I prefer (and I recommend to all of my friends and clients) to use the "proper" way of using multi user OS, which is "Just use the darn limited user" advice. Since Vista and 7 is built with limited user in mind, both products are behaving accordingly, which is not the case with Windows XP (and Windows 2000 Pro). By using true Limited user and disable UAC, the system will then check ONLY by ACL, no more virtualization, no more cr*p, just plain old Windows, VERY fast and efficient.

Imagine if you want to start an application, with UAC it will initialize the Virtualization engine, preparing the Virtualized environment, doing the Mandatory Integrity Check, preparing the sandbox, all that - and then prepare for ASLR, DEP, etc... My god, that's a lot of overhead... By using Limited user, disable UAC, when you start an app, it will just start the app, no virtualization initialization, no token check, no cr*p. If the app accesses, say "Program Files\[app folder]" and that folder is in "read only" for the current user, then the app will simply throw an error of unable to write, or something... No other checks than ACL.

In short, simpler, faster, smiley face all day, every day

zzz2496
My System SpecsSystem Spec
11 Apr 2010   #57
SIW2

Microsoft Community Contributor Award Recipient

Vista x64 / 7 X64
 
 

This may be of interest .

You can choose during install to have either the start menu, or the Explorer enhancements, or both.

Classic Shell: Features
My System SpecsSystem Spec
11 Apr 2010   #58
pparks1

Windows 7 Ultimate x64
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by zzz2496 View Post
I prefer (and I recommend to all of my friends and clients) to use the "proper" way of using multi user OS, which is "Just use the darn limited user" advice. Since Vista and 7 is built with limited user in mind, both products are behaving accordingly, which is not the case with Windows XP (and Windows 2000 Pro). By using true Limited user and disable UAC, the system will then check ONLY by ACL, no more virtualization, no more cr*p, just plain old Windows, VERY fast and efficient.
What are you suggesting here? I want to make sure that I fully understand the advice.

Are you saying to use an account that is simply in Users....or to use an account that is in the admins group and simply run with UAC disabled as this initial account is a limited user by default.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
11 Apr 2010   #59
zzz2496

Windows7 Ultimate 64bit
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by pparks1 View Post
Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by zzz2496 View Post
I prefer (and I recommend to all of my friends and clients) to use the "proper" way of using multi user OS, which is "Just use the darn limited user" advice. Since Vista and 7 is built with limited user in mind, both products are behaving accordingly, which is not the case with Windows XP (and Windows 2000 Pro). By using true Limited user and disable UAC, the system will then check ONLY by ACL, no more virtualization, no more cr*p, just plain old Windows, VERY fast and efficient.
What are you suggesting here? I want to make sure that I fully understand the advice.

Are you saying to use an account that is simply in Users....or to use an account that is in the admins group and simply run with UAC disabled as this initial account is a limited user by default.
Ok, I'll clear things up...

You will need at least one "Administrator", this is according to "Control Panel -> User Accounts". Then you create one "Standard User" for day to day use. Disable UAC, restart the computer.

Note: This is for those who knows what they're doing. Regular user, stick to Microsoft way (UAC + all those overheads, slower but that's how MS created it), bad things happens when you do the right way... good things happen when you use Microsoft way.... Remember, though Windows Vista and 7 is closing the gap between a real multi user OS (*nix) and Windows, still... Windows still have it's bad legacy with it, it will "bark" at you from time to time. If you know your ways around Windows, feel free to try.

zzz2496
My System SpecsSystem Spec
11 Apr 2010   #60
whs
Microsoft MVP

Vista, Windows7, Mint Mate, Zorin, Windows 8
 
 

Hey, Hey - we are all guilty for highjacking this poor OPs thread for UAC discussions. He must be totally confused and does not seem to dare sticking his head out - LOL.
I have started a new thread where we can discuss UAC. Maybe you please to migrate further UAC discussion to that thread. Let's discuss UAC here
My System SpecsSystem Spec
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 Windows 7 awkward feel, missing WinXP, need advice




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