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Windows 7: Several Power Questions

25 Jul 2010   #21
pparks1

Windows 7 Ultimate x64
 
 

I used to buy these APC's for about $50 from Best Buy or Sam's Club. They always worked well
Amazon.com: APC Back-UPS ES 500 Backup Battery and Surge Protector: Electronics


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25 Jul 2010   #22
Dwarf

Windows 8.1 Pro RTM x64
 
 

Some info on lightning: Lightning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As you can see, the energy is immense - far more than any surge protector can withstand. A high-quality surge protector can withstand upto 10 kilojoules, but that is woefully inadequate against lightning strikes where the energy produced can be in the order of several megajoules.

I agree with the others in that if your power is not particularly stable then a UPS and surge protector will serve you well (in fact, I recommend that a surge protector be used anyway). Many UPS units have a surge protector built-in, but this obviously only provides protection to devices that are plugged into it. Neither of these will provide you with protection against lightning though. In very heavy thunderstorms, particularly where there is a lot of lightning activity in and around your location, I recommend that you disconnect your system from the mains and also unplug it from the Internet (disconnect the phone line from your modem/router).
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25 Jul 2010   #23
glennc

Windows 7 Ultimate
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by pparks1 View Post
I used to buy these APC's for about $50 from Best Buy or Sam's Club. They always worked well
Amazon.com: APC Back-UPS ES 500 Backup Battery and Surge Protector: Electronics
Howdy pparks1,
I appreciate the link. The prices sure are right. Although I don't know how comfortable I am with used or refurbed in my specific use. Thanks dude.
glennc
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25 Jul 2010   #24
glennc

Windows 7 Ultimate
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Dwarf View Post
Some info on lightning: Lightning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As you can see, the energy is immense - far more than any surge protector can withstand. A high-quality surge protector can withstand upto 10 kilojoules, but that is woefully inadequate against lightning strikes where the energy produced can be in the order of several megajoules.

I agree with the others in that if your power is not particularly stable then a UPS and surge protector will serve you well (in fact, I recommend that a surge protector be used anyway). Many UPS units have a surge protector built-in, but this obviously only provides protection to devices that are plugged into it. Neither of these will provide you with protection against lightning though. In very heavy thunderstorms, particularly where there is a lot of lightning activity in and around your location, I recommend that you disconnect your system from the mains and also unplug it from the Internet (disconnect the phone line from your modem/router).
Hello and thank you Dwarf,
I have a tendency towards overkill, I mean if 10 is enough, 15 has got to be better, right? Good advice which I am in the process of codifying and implimenting.
glennc
My System SpecsSystem Spec
25 Jul 2010   #25
westom

 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by glennc View Post
I have a tendency towards overkill, I mean if 10 is enough, 15 has got to be better, right? Good advice which I am in the process of codifying and implimenting.


What protector will stop what three miles of sky could not? That is what so many have assumed. Power strip protectors do not protect from destructive surges - and do not claim to protect in their numeric specs. A UPS is even worse - has the same 'power strip' protector circuit - just smaller. Again, read the numbers.

Destructive surges are hundreds of thousands of joules. So protectors that are hundreds of joules will absorb a surge? Nonsense. A plug-in UPS recommendation made that claim. UPS contains a protector just enough above zero so that others will claim it is 100% protection. View the numbers yourself.

Destructive surge are not stopped - as plug-in protectors claims to do. Any 'stopping' that might be done is already done better inside electronic appliances. All appliances contain serious protector. Protection that can be overwhelmed if you do not learn concepts understood even 100 years ago.

The NIST (US government research agency) defines what all protectors must do:
> You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor "arrest" it. What these protective
> devices do is neither suppress nor arrest a surge, but simply divert it to ground, where
> it can do no harm.

How many discussed the only thing that does protection - single point earth ground? Some correctly identified power strip protectors as ineffective. And did not even say what all effective protectors do.

Protection is always about where energy dissipates. Read this paragraph twice. Either energy dissipates harmlessly outside the building. Or hundreds of thousands of joules are inside hunting for earth destructively via appliances. No protector will stop or absorb hundreds of thousands of joules. No 2 cm part inside that protector will stop what three miles of sky could not. Effective protectors made direct lightning strikes irrelevant for over 100 years. Because effective protectors are about where energy dissipates.

Either you earth one 'whole house' protector. Or you have virtually no surge protection.

The NIST then defines plug-in protectors:
> A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector will work by diverting
> the surges to ground. The best surge protection in the world can be useless if grounding
> is not done properly.

An effective protector must have that short (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth. No dedicated earthing wire means the protector is ineffective. I called that power strip or UPS protector ineffective. The NIST is blunter. Calls protectors without the always required earthing "useless". The word scam applies.

More responsible companies sell 'whole house' protectors including General Electric, Siemens, Square D, Keison, ABB, Intermatic, and Leviton. A Cutler-Hammer solution sells in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50. A superior solution costs tens or 100 times less money.

Protection is always about where energy dissipates. Any post that does not discuss energy dissipation is probably promoting retail myths. No earth ground means no protection. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. And says so with numbers. How does that 2 cm part stop what three miles of sky could not? It will not even claim protection in numeric specs but will be recommended by most consumers.

UPS is for temporary power to protect unsaved data. Power strip protectors are near zero protection - mostly profit centers. Surge protecetion must be located where wires enter the building for the always required short connection to earth.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
25 Jul 2010   #26
CarlTR6

Windows 7 Ultimate 32 bit
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by glennc View Post
Howdy Gentlemen,
I was comparing specifications and have seen some differences. Not that I understand them fully. The "joule" rating for surge protection goes from 200s to 480 in the under $99 category of Tripp-lite products. A question that pops to mind is that regular surge protectors have in the 2 to 3000 plus joule ratings. That seems to be quite a difference for actual surge protection I awaiting eagerly being put right on the values of the joule rating necessity. It seems that the joule ratings of those UPS is much inferior to stand alone suppressors. Also I know there is interaction between the UPS and the OS, but for the life of me, I have no idea what it might be. I did see an "unattended shut down" mode for the more expensive model. Some allow the DSL modem to be surge protected. Is this a good idea?
Appreciate you'alls help and any further explanation, thanks.
glennc
The interaction is a software program that will automatically initiate a safe shut down of your system in the event of a power failure. This can be handy for unattended computers that run 24/7. The idea is that with a normal shutdown, programs are closed and you lose no data.

I have never installed or used this feature. When I am away for my computer, it is in the sleep mode unless there is some scheduled maintenance activity occurring.

The surge protection of a UPS is simply to insure that your computer has a consistent power supply. When voltage drops momentarily, the battery kicks in. When voltage spikes, the surge protection is supposed to route that spike to ground giving and even flow of power to your computer. Nothing will protect you from a direct lightning strike on the lines, not even a whole house protector - except being unplugged. I completely agree with Westom. I use the UPS to save data and prevent an unexpected shutdown from momentary power outages.

Quote:
I appreciate the link. The prices sure are right. Although I don't know how comfortable I am with used or refurbed in my specific use.
I have no problem with a refurbed unit. My modem and router are on a refurbed unit. All I am trying to do is keep the power to the devices until I can shut down or get the generator going.
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25 Jul 2010   #27
westom

 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by CarlTR6 View Post
Nothing will protect you from a direct lightning strike on the lines, not even a whole house protector - except being unplugged.

Orange County FL suffered repeated failures to the 911 system. Routine is to have direct lightning strikes and no damage. So Orange County had a serious reliability problem.
What did Orange County do so that direct lightning strikes in Central FL cause no damage and no service interruption? Corrected the only reason for damage - defective earthing:
http://www.psihq.com/AllCopper.htm

Routine is to have direct lightning strikes without damage. But many informed only by retail salesmen have learned those 'magic' plug-in boxes do nothing.

Either the 'whole house' protector is earthed. Or one has no protection from typically destructive surges - including lightning. Routine for 100 years is to have direct lightning strikes. Operators would not remove headsets and leave the room during thunderstorms - because protection was properly earthed.


Same is used today in every building that must suffer direct lightning strikes without damage. It is always about a protector connected short (ie 'less than 10 feet') to single point earth ground. Something that no plug-in protector or UPS claims to do - except in sales brochures where lying is legal.

Early 20th Century Ham radio operators would even disconnect the antenna lead. And put it inside a mason jar. They still suffered damge. Damage stopped when the antenna lead was earthed.

No earthing mean no protection. Effective protectors are, well, the NIST said it bluntly:
> The best surge protection in the world can be useless if grounding
> is not done properly.


My System SpecsSystem Spec
25 Jul 2010   #28
glennc

Windows 7 Ultimate
 
 

Ouch,
Now you've ramped up my anxiety for my entire house, thanks . So no surge protector commercially produced for electronic surge protection has any effect at all?
Want to make sure I'm clear on this. This is in regards to a surge without direct lightening strikes. So having none is as good as having 3000 joules in general, none lightening strike conditions. Thus a UPS which has say 480 joules is no less effective than one with 1000 joules, am I correct so far?
Having suffered direct lightning strikes, the only destruction was a monitor. All the other electrical and electronic devices where plugged in as normal. We often turn off the A/C if it feels like it is going to be a long storm as it takes a off power, to reset and function. So with that information, could one assume that my residence is pretty well grounded? This is an important question.
I have seen Tripp-Lite UPS's in the 550 size supposedly good for 15 minutes. Much longer than I need if I am there and can manually shut down. I was wondering about the software for when I am away or asleep and letting the computer run all night for various scans. Generally I shutdown each night. These units cost around $55 and have 4 battery backed up and four surge protected outlets. That is enough to cover my needs I believe. If a consensus is formed that the 280 joule version with all else equal is no better than the 480 joule model I can certainly save up to $10.
Thanks for the new information.
glennc
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25 Jul 2010   #29
glennc

Windows 7 Ultimate
 
 

Another quick dumb question as I don't hold these truths to be self-evident. Will a fully charged UPS continue to do it's job, if I pull the plug. I believe the answer is yes, but want actual confirmation if possible.
glennc
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25 Jul 2010   #30
CarlTR6

Windows 7 Ultimate 32 bit
 
 

I have never tried it. With my APC brand, you actually have to shut it off with a button to stop it from doing its job. My guess is that unplugging it will shut it down. I will shut my computer down and leave the monitor on after while and try it.
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