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Windows 7: Several Power Questions

25 Jul 2010   #31
westom

 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by glennc View Post
Now you've ramped up my anxiety for my entire house, thanks . So no surge protector commercially produced for electronic surge protection has any effect at all?

That is not what professionals say. Routine is to have a direct lighting strike. And nobody knows the surge existed. But that means two tasks. First you must unlearn the many myths successfully entrenched in the majority. Second, you must learn what even Franklin first demonstrates in 1752. The same principles that protected church steeples (building protection) also applies to appliance protection.

Again, because popular myths make this paragraph so difficult to understand. Both are called surge protectors. One claims to magically make surges disappear. The other does what has been done for lightning protection even 100 years ago. Either energy dissipates harmlessly outside the building. The $1 per protected appliance solution. Or energy hunts for earth ground destructively via appliances - the $25 and $150 per appliance protection. Never assume anything because two completely different devices have the same name.

Correct abut the UPS. At 480 joules or 1000 joules, it is still near zero protection. Just enough above zero so that a majority will hype it as 100% surge protection.

Yesterday, the surge took out the monitor. The next surge - permitted inside a building - will find earth ground via some other appliance. The list is long. Including furnace, dishwasher, clock radio, bathroom GFCIs, etc. How do you protect everything? What appliance most needs protection during a surge? Smoke detector. What protects that? Use the only solution that has always made direct lightning strikes irrelevant - earth one 'whole house' protector.

Most all homes are not properly grounded. If any wire inside any cable does not connect, first to earth ground, then your entire protection system is compromised. For example, AC electric is three wires. Only one connects to earth. A direct lightning strike down the street is a direct lightning strike to all household appliance via those other two unearthed wires. Effective protection means those other two wires must connect 'less than 10 feet' to earth via a 'whole house' protector. It is that simple. And never discussed where advertising educated consumers.

A UPS has one function. Protect unsaved data. A UPS in battery backup mode outputs some of the ‘dirtiest’ electricity an appliance might ever see. For example, this 120 volts UPS outputs two 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves. Again, which post also contains numbers? You should be asking that question with every reply. Others who were told the UPS 'cleans' electricity. Nonsense because sales brochures can lie – numeric specifications cannot.

A UPS outputs power so 'dirty' as to be harmful to small electric motors and power strip protectors. Because all electronics contain robust surge protection, that ‘dirty’ UPS is ideal electricity to all electronics. Your concern is the rare transient (typically once every seven years) that may overwhelm protection already inside appliances - including the air conditioner.

Turning it off does no protection. Will millimeters inside an air conditioner power switch stop a surge? Or course not. Either that energy MUST be earthed outside the building. Or that surge will hunt for earth ground through any appliance - powered on or off – even through the millimeter gap in any switch.

Repeated again because so many never understand it the first, second, or third time. **Protection is always about where energy dissipates. Either a surge is absorbed harmlessly outside the building. Or nothing inside the building stops that surge. Energy inside the building means the surge is hunting for earth ground destructively via appliances.** As the NIST bluntly said, "The best surge protection in the world can be useless if grounding is not done properly." That means any wire (even underground wire) that enters a building without first being earth, then all protection has been compromised. Earthing that is short (ie ‘less than 10 feet’), no sharp wire bends, and … so far this has only been the executive summary.

A solution found when informed homeowners use products from responsible companies such as General Electric, Leviton, Intermatic, Cutler-Hammer, etc (listed previously). Avoid plug-in 'miracle boxes' from APC, Belkin, Tripplite, and a master of profitable scams - Monster Cable.

See those less responsible companies? Where is the dedicated wire for the short connection to earth? Why do they avoid the entire discussion. A $3 power strip with some ten cent protector parts sells for $25 or $150. Why would they be honest?

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.


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25 Jul 2010   #32
westom

 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by glennc View Post
Will a fully charged UPS continue to do it's job, if I pull the plug.
Pulling the plug (or disconnecting it by switching a wall switch) is how to test its battery backup function. This can be important. Some newer computers have a power factor correction (PFC) circuit. Because electricity from a UPS is traditionally so dirty, it can confuse the PFC circuit - cause the computer to power off.


Second, a UPS is often made as cheap as possible. Battery life expectancy is three years. The battery can degrade quickly. If you do not test it, then you learn about the nearly dead battery when you least want to - during a blackout.
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25 Jul 2010   #33
glennc

Windows 7 Ultimate
 
 

Will give it a try, when I decide on the exact model and implement it. As always appreciative of you advice.
glennc
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25 Jul 2010   #34
karlsnooks

MS Windows 7 Ultimate SP1 64-bit
 
 

glen,

ok. Nitty gritty.

Some protection is always better than none.

Tripp-lite is a good mfg of UPS systems and there is a reason for their price-you get what you pay for.

Three things are important:
1. a good house grounding system,
2. a good point-of-entry surge protection
3. a good point-of-use surge protection.

For point-of-use the UPS is good and a quality point-of-use surge protector for devices not protected by ups is good.

Point-of-use takes care of the small surges.

Point-of-entry is applied at your main panel box and takes care of big surges. Siemens makes a Circuit Breaker and Secondary Surge Arrestor which I recommend-expensive, easy to install, effective. Panamax makes an external, hardwired surge protector called Pirimax.

Point-of-entry surge protection will normally be installed by a licensed electrician. ALWAYS use a licensed electrician as opposed to an apprentice, novice, family-friend.

Grounding system: Some states require more than the National Electrical Code. Generally, use a bare minimum of two ground rods, preferrably eight (they are cheap.) Once again, consult with a licensed electrician.

An excellent book:
Wiring a House by Rex Caldwell.
Book is one of Tauton's "For Pros by Pros" series.
This book was written by a man who has been there and done that.
This book gets a 10+ on a scale of 1 to 10.
Anyone can read and understand. To use the knowledge is something else.

In conclusion,
Good ground system, good point-of-entry surge protection and good point-of-use surge protection.
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25 Jul 2010   #35
glennc

Windows 7 Ultimate
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by karlsnooks View Post
glen,

ok. Nitty gritty.

Some protection is always better than none.

Tripp-lite is a good mfg of UPS systems and there is a reason for their price-you get what you pay for.

Three things are important:
1. a good house grounding system,
2. a good point-of-entry surge protection
3. a good point-of-use surge protection.

For point-of-use the UPS is good and a quality point-of-use surge protector for devices not protected by ups is good.

Point-of-use takes care of the small surges.

Point-of-entry is applied at your main panel box and takes care of big surges. Siemens makes a Circuit Breaker and Secondary Surge Arrestor which I recommend-expensive, easy to install, effective. Panamax makes an external, hardwired surge protector called Pirimax.

Point-of-entry surge protection will normally be installed by a licensed electrician. ALWAYS use a licensed electrician as opposed to an apprentice, novice, family-friend.

Grounding system: Some states require more than the National Electrical Code. Generally, use a bare minimum of two ground rods, preferrably eight (they are cheap.) Once again, consult with a licensed electrician.

An excellent book:
Wiring a House by Rex Caldwell.
Book is one of Tauton's "For Pros by Pros" series.
This book was written by a man who has been there and done that.
This book gets a 10+ on a scale of 1 to 10.
Anyone can read and understand. To use the knowledge is something else.

In conclusion,
Good ground system, good point-of-entry surge protection and good point-of-use surge protection.
Hello karlsnooks,
It is great that this forum has members of such knowledge and the ability to make it simple for the layman to understand. Just to clarify a little further for my understanding, you feel that a 200 joule UPS is adequate or good enough to a comparable unit with 480 joules? You obviously IMO believe that surge protectors offer some advantage, so as their use it not a complete waste.
Now in reference to the Point-of-Entry device can you think of a ball park cost for this extra strength protection. Just want an idea. I know this house only has one ground rod. Thanks if you can spare some more time to answer. Thank you kindly.
glennc
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25 Jul 2010   #36
A Guy

Microsoft Community Contributor Award Recipient

Windows 7 Home Premium x64 SP1
 
 

This might be a good, simple rule of thumb, at least it is with surge protectors. If the company offers insurance (read the fine print, and google how hard it is to collect), then they are confident their product is quality. If they offer $20,000 if their product doesn't do it's job, they are confident. If however, you have to have an electrician in to verify your home is properly grounded, and the polarity is correct. If you have to satisfy some arcane procedure to make you qualified...then that protection is worth the paper it was written on. I think you take lightning out of the equation when deciding what joule rating you need, since that is a killer, but a unexpected electrical spike would be what you are considering. Hopefully karlsnooks can advise you there. A Guy
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25 Jul 2010   #37
glennc

Windows 7 Ultimate
 
 

Hey A Guy,
I never cease to be amazed at the things you members bring up that I didn't even think about. Good, good advice. Thanks for you assistance.
glennc
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25 Jul 2010   #38
karlsnooks

MS Windows 7 Ultimate SP1 64-bit
 
 

glen,
480 joule unit is better.

Ask a licensed electrician in your area for an estimate. Be sure to ask for his license number. There are many charlatans out there. I do not care for, and will not engage, in a discussion of why licensed but you wouldn't go to an unlicensed doctor and yes i know they are not the same. But that licensed electrician had to, in most states, pass a very comprehensive test on the National Electric Code and have 4-5 years experience in many areas.

And to really stir people up, I am an adamant supporter of unions. And that is my last word.
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25 Jul 2010   #39
glennc

Windows 7 Ultimate
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by karlsnooks View Post
glen,
480 joule unit is better.

Ask a licensed electrician in your area for an estimate. Be sure to ask for his license number. There are many charlatans out there. I do not care for, and will not engage, in a discussion of why licensed but you wouldn't go to an unlicensed doctor and yes i know they are not the same. But that licensed electrician had to, in most states, pass a very comprehensive test on the National Electric Code and have 4-5 years experience in many areas.

And to really stir people up, I am an adamant supporter of unions. And that is my last word.
As a an electrical assembler and troubleshooter working with Electrical Engineers and designing minor electro-mechanical which they approved, I have seen the rigors of what it takes to be a licensed electrician. Although I feel more than adequate for a number of things, when it comes to safety and liability, for me the choice is obvious. Also I am not required to keep up with new standards and devices.
I agree. Have a good evening.
glennc
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26 Jul 2010   #40
westom

 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by A Guy View Post
If the company offers insurance (read the fine print, and google how hard it is to collect), then they are confident their product is quality. If they offer $20,000 if their product doesn't do it's job, they are confident.
GM offers the best warranty on cars. That proves GM cars are superior to Honda and Toyota? Total nonsense.

Ford did a same thing in the 1960s. Fords failed so often as to offer a 5 year 50,000 mile warranty. Nobody had ever done that before. Big buck warranties have reams of fine print exemptions. In free markets, companies that offer a highest warranty are often the most inferior products.

Plug-in protectors warranties are chock full of exemptions as to not be honored. For example, one APC warranty said a protector from any other manufacturer voided the APC warranty.

djohn in "Are surge protectors a waste of money?" on 8 Apr 2010:
> I was running all my PC equipment through a UPS plus four separate 6 gang surge protectors.
> Phoned up manufacture of UPS [Belkin] and they were not happy as soon as I said I was using
> the surge protectors, should have used UPS on its own! Didn't bother to follow that up any
> further at that point a I could see it would most likely end up in small claims court. ...
> Conditions laid down over phone came no where near to what I had read on package when
> buying ...
> I don't know if UPS and or surge protectors work for other people but they did not for me ... Does
> anyone know if anyone has ever been payed out by any company that sells UPS or surge
> protectors if they have failed to do their intended job?

HolyCow! posted "Alternate Technology Surge Protection" on 13 Mar 2010:
> Had my computer system "protected" by an APC SurgeArrest, and it failed (my computer was
> fried). APC refused to repair or replace, which means that APC lies when they print on their
> packaging that they will repair or replace your equipment which their surge-stopping
> equipment fails to protect. NEVER will buy APC again.

Anyone can make subjective and speculative, soundbyte conclusions about the warranty. Magically know that a warranty says something useful. Hard reality is completely different once we add the many examples, actual reasoning, and read the fine print.

How does that 2 cm part stop what three miles of sky could not? Answer to that technical question suggests what the warranty does. Actual experience confirms the warranty is bogus.

BTW, what was GM doing with their warranties? GM dumped warranty costs on the dealers. Reimbursing dealers at ten or 25 cents on the dollar. Therefore the dealers would do everything possible to not honor warranty repairs. GM did it in the seventies and was recently doing it again. More example that all should have learned from the free market.
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