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Windows 7: Several Power Questions

26 Jul 2010   #41
westom

 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by karlsnooks View Post
Some protection is always better than none. Tripp-lite is a good mfg of UPS systems and there is a reason for their price-you get what you pay for.
Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by karlsnooks View Post
Three things are important:
1. a good house grounding system,
2. a good point-of-entry surge protection
3. a good point-of-use surge protection.
Which is what retail propaganda says. Nowhere does that recommendation say why. No 'whys' and no numbers immediately suggests a post based in hearsay from retail advertising.

A "good point-of-use protection" means the protector has no earth ground. What did the NIST say? "The best surge protection in the world can be useless if grounding is not done properly." Previous posts also said 'why' earth ground is critically important. No earth ground (that point-of-use protector) means no effective protection. And then it gets worse.

View what happens when a plug-in protector attempts to stop or absorb a hundred of thousands joule surge. Most fire departments have seen this:
http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
http://tinyurl.com/3x73ol is entitled "Surge Protector Fires"
http://www3.cw56.com/news/articles/local/BO63312/
http://www.nmsu.edu/~safety/news/lesson-learned/surgeprotectorfire.htm
http://www.pennsburgfireco.com/fullstory.php?58339

Undersized protectors open a thermal fuse; disconnect protector circuits before fire can start. (Abandon the appliance to that surge.) Sometimes that thermal fuse does not disconnect fast enough. Above scary pictures result.

Those scary pictures are just another reason why informed consumers redirect 'plug-in protector' funds into better earthing for only one 'whole house' protector. Money wasted on plug-in protectors is better diverted into better earthing.


Many electricians do not learn how to properly install a 'whole house' protector. It is not defined in the code book. A rule (that must be forgotten to buy plug-in protectors): "A protector is only as effective as its earth ground." How to 'better earth' is below.

Find a wire that connects the circuit breaker box to earth. A solid bare copper, quarter inch wire. Does that wire go up over the foundation and down to the earth ground rod? That ground wire is too long. Too many sharp bends. Bundled with other wires. That wire only meets code. And compromises surge protection.

A ground wire must go through the foundation and down to the single point earth ground. Sharp bends eliminated. Wire is shorter.

Good reason why 'whole house' protectors are sold in Lowes and Home Depot. Any informed homeowner can do it. Every posted word is important: "informed".

Where is the point-of-use protector that has an 'always required' earth ground? Does not exist. A manufacturer must avoid earth discussions to make the sale. Missing ground is one reason why those scary pictures exist. Where does all that energy dissiapte? See scary pictures.

Why do we earth one 'whole house' protector? Point-of-use protectors, that cost tens or 100 times more money, also need 'whole house' protection. What kind of protector is that point-of-use device? Ineffective - and also many times more expensive. It has no dedicated earth ground. Where does energy dissipate? Never discussed. That alone says it is a profit center; not surge protection.




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26 Jul 2010   #42
Win7User512

Windows 7 x64 / Same
 
 

I always unplug when I know a storm is coming and have the advanced opportunity to do so.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
26 Jul 2010   #43
glennc

Windows 7 Ultimate
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by westom View Post
Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by A Guy View Post
If the company offers insurance (read the fine print, and google how hard it is to collect), then they are confident their product is quality. If they offer $20,000 if their product doesn't do it's job, they are confident.
GM offers the best warranty on cars. That proves GM cars are superior to Honda and Toyota? Total nonsense.

Ford did a same thing in the 1960s. Fords failed so often as to offer a 5 year 50,000 mile warranty. Nobody had ever done that before. Big buck warranties have reams of fine print exemptions. In free markets, companies that offer a highest warranty are often the most inferior products.

Plug-in protectors warranties are chock full of exemptions as to not be honored. For example, one APC warranty said a protector from any other manufacturer voided the APC warranty.

djohn in "Are surge protectors a waste of money?" on 8 Apr 2010:
> I was running all my PC equipment through a UPS plus four separate 6 gang surge protectors.
> Phoned up manufacture of UPS [Belkin] and they were not happy as soon as I said I was using
> the surge protectors, should have used UPS on its own! Didn't bother to follow that up any
> further at that point a I could see it would most likely end up in small claims court. ...
> Conditions laid down over phone came no where near to what I had read on package when
> buying ...
> I don't know if UPS and or surge protectors work for other people but they did not for me ... Does
> anyone know if anyone has ever been payed out by any company that sells UPS or surge
> protectors if they have failed to do their intended job?

HolyCow! posted "Alternate Technology Surge Protection" on 13 Mar 2010:
> Had my computer system "protected" by an APC SurgeArrest, and it failed (my computer was
> fried). APC refused to repair or replace, which means that APC lies when they print on their
> packaging that they will repair or replace your equipment which their surge-stopping
> equipment fails to protect. NEVER will buy APC again.

Anyone can make subjective and speculative, soundbyte conclusions about the warranty. Magically know that a warranty says something useful. Hard reality is completely different once we add the many examples, actual reasoning, and read the fine print.

How does that 2 cm part stop what three miles of sky could not? Answer to that technical question suggests what the warranty does. Actual experience confirms the warranty is bogus.

BTW, what was GM doing with their warranties? GM dumped warranty costs on the dealers. Reimbursing dealers at ten or 25 cents on the dollar. Therefore the dealers would do everything possible to not honor warranty repairs. GM did it in the seventies and was recently doing it again. More example that all should have learned from the free market.
Yes Westom,
Isn't the ethics of obtaining money awe inspiring. At least a robber makes no pretense. Thanks for the reminder. Sorry about the problem you described.
glennc
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26 Jul 2010   #44
glennc

Windows 7 Ultimate
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Win7User512 View Post
I always unplug when I know a storm is coming and have the advanced opportunity to do so.
Ultimate in safety, less desirable to practice! But, it is the only way to be sure. I do agree. Thanks for the input.
glennc
My System SpecsSystem Spec
26 Jul 2010   #45
Win7User512

Windows 7 x64 / Same
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by glennc View Post
Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Win7User512 View Post
I always unplug when I know a storm is coming and have the advanced opportunity to do so.
Ultimate in safety, less desirable to practice! But, it is the only way to be sure. I do agree. Thanks for the input.
glennc
No problem. It is very annoying to have to unplug, especially when you have storms every week, but it's better than losing your expensive hardware. LOL.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
26 Jul 2010   #46
NoN

Windows 7 Professional SP1 - x64 [Non-UEFI Boot]
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by glennc View Post
Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Win7User512 View Post
I always unplug when I know a storm is coming and have the advanced opportunity to do so.
Ultimate in safety, less desirable to practice! But, it is the only way to be sure. I do agree. Thanks for the input.
glennc
I spoke too fast yesterday.... Washington State had been badly lightning striked and damaged aswell. Two persons are missing...
My System SpecsSystem Spec
26 Jul 2010   #47
westom

 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Win7User512 View Post
It is very annoying to have to unplug, especially when you have storms every week, but it's better than losing your expensive hardware. LOL.
Or earth one 'whole house' protector. And follow thunderstorms on the computer as they roll through - without fear.


A $multi-million switching computer in the telco building is connected to overhead wires all over town. Suffers at least 100 surges with each storm. Is not damaged. How often has your town been without phone service for four days?

Telcos use no plug-in protectors. Telcos earth 'whole house' type protectors so that even unplugging is wasted energy.

Unplugging is recommended when people confuse ineffective plug-in protectors with properly earthed 'whole house' protectors. Then have damage. Sometimes a protector adjacent to the appliance even makes surge damage easier. Bypassed protection already inside appliances.

Meanwhile, a friend knows someone who knows this stuff. 33,000 volts fell upon the local distribution. Hundreds of electric meters were blown from their pans typically 20 and 30 feet. Many who wasted money on expensive plug-in protectors had damage to appliances and to the protector. My friend only had a damaged meter. Even his 'whole house' protector remained functional - as it should. How would unplugging have saved anything. Surges occur often with little warning. Informed homeowners first spend tens or 100 times less money to do what was done 100 years ago. How often is your town without telephones for four days? The informed only do what is well proven for over 100 years.

Why would anyone make life so complicated by unplugging?
My System SpecsSystem Spec
26 Jul 2010   #48
glennc

Windows 7 Ultimate
 
 

Thanks Gentlemen,
I am catching on. I think I follow Westom in the ultimate protection. Just wish I had a ballpark idea. I know it ain't gonna be cheap.
Again thanks to all who have participated. I feel now a UPS with 480 joules and a surge protector strip for my other devices. Best I can do for now, and better than nothing. Learned that here, from you'all.
glennc
My System SpecsSystem Spec
26 Jul 2010   #49
westom

 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by glennc View Post
I am catching on. I think I follow Westom in the ultimate protection.
The UPS and 480 joules is a most expensive solution. Costing far more money than the well proven 'whole house' solution.

UPS has only one function - to provide temporary power during a blackout - to protect unsaved data.

Described as the ultimate solution is a least expensive and simplest solution. One 'whole house' protector. About $1 per protected appliance.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
26 Jul 2010   #50
Mellon Head

Win 7 Pro x64/Win 10 Pro x64 dual boot
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by glennc View Post
Thanks Gentlemen,
I am catching on. I think I follow Westom in the ultimate protection. Just wish I had a ballpark idea. I know it ain't gonna be cheap.
I would take westom's ranting with a grain of salt, and follow the advice of karlsnooks. I don't know westom's credentials, if he has any at all, but karl is an electrical engineer and is giving you sound advice.

The bottom line is nothing that a consumer can afford will completely stop a lightning strike. There are things that will mitigate the damage, like lightning arrestors, but nothing is guaranteed. You're talking about millions of Volts at very high current. Lightning will go where it wants to. 'Nuff said.

As for the claim that surge arrestors are a waste of money, you need to understand what a surge protected power bar is meant to do. It is not meant to protect you from lightning, or any other high discharge electrical event. What it is meant to protect you from is the day to day bouncing of the standard AC line voltage that is present in our electrical delivery system. Little spikes and glitches happen all of the time. If you have a power failure, when the power comes back on, there can be large spikes in voltage as the AC stabilizes (as high as 160 Volts in some cases.) The surge protector basically absorbs these little glitches and bumps, and then bleeds them off to ground, preventing damage to your equipment.

That's how they work. They aren't a cure all, and you should definitely not rely on one to protect you from an electrical storm. I use a UPS for backup, and it feeds a surge arrestor power bar that my PC is plugged into. And that's all.

And I unplug in a storm.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
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