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Windows 7: Several Power Questions

26 Jul 2010   #51
glennc

Windows 7 Ultimate
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by westom View Post
Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by glennc View Post
I am catching on. I think I follow Westom in the ultimate protection.
The UPS and 480 joules is a most expensive solution. Costing far more money than the well proven 'whole house' solution.

UPS has only one function - to provide temporary power during a blackout - to protect unsaved data.

Described as the ultimate solution is a least expensive and simplest solution. One 'whole house' protector. About $1 per protected appliance.
Hello Westom,
The protection I was looking at was around $60 for the Tripp-Lite UPS +$20 to cover the surge protection on the devices I don't have hook to the UPS. I don't know but I would think that that would be a less expensive route to hiring a licensed electrician and putting more ground rods and the house protector. Don't they make like $80 and hour? I don't yet know. Plus wouldn't I still need the UPS even with the whole house protector?
Thanks for anymore incite you can provide.
glennc


My System SpecsSystem Spec
.
26 Jul 2010   #52
glennc

Windows 7 Ultimate
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Mellon Head View Post
Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by glennc View Post
Thanks Gentlemen,
I am catching on. I think I follow Westom in the ultimate protection. Just wish I had a ballpark idea. I know it ain't gonna be cheap.
I would take westom's ranting with a grain of salt, and follow the advice of karlsnooks. I don't know westom's credentials, if he has any at all, but karl is an electrical engineer and is giving you sound advice.

The bottom line is nothing that a consumer can afford will completely stop a lightning strike. There are things that will mitigate the damage, like lightning arrestors, but nothing is guaranteed. You're talking about millions of Volts at very high current. Lightning will go where it wants to. 'Nuff said.

As for the claim that surge arrestors are a waste of money, you need to understand what a surge protected power bar is meant to do. It is not meant to protect you from lightning, or any other high discharge electrical event. What it is meant to protect you from is the day to day bouncing of the standard AC line voltage that is present in our electrical delivery system. Little spikes and glitches happen all of the time. If you have a power failure, when the power comes back on, there can be large spikes in voltage as the AC stabilizes (as high as 160 Volts in some cases.) The surge protector basically absorbs these little glitches and bumps, and then bleeds them off to ground, preventing damage to your equipment.

That's how they work. They aren't a cure all, and you should definitely not rely on one to protect you from an electrical storm. I use a UPS for backup, and it feeds a surge arrestor power bar that my PC is plugged into. And that's all.

And I unplug in a storm.
Thanks Mellon Head,
Your point of view makes sense and I think I do understand. I believe that surge protectors provide some protection, not a lightening strike and the UPS covers line variation. I still wouldn't mind having a whole house professionally installed protector with extra ground rods. I just as yet don't know that I can afford that.
Appreciate the support.
glennc
My System SpecsSystem Spec
27 Jul 2010   #53
westom

 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Mellon Head View Post
It is not meant to protect you from lightning, or any other high discharge electrical event. What it is meant to protect you from is the day to day bouncing of the standard AC line voltage that is present in our electrical delivery system. Little spikes and glitches happen all of the time. If you have a power failure, when the power comes back on, there can be large spikes in voltage as the AC stabilizes (as high as 160 Volts in some cases.)
Let's examine that voltage number. On every protector's box is a required number: let-through voltage 330 volts. A protector does nothing - remains inert - until voltage exceeds 330 volts. Where are daily glitches that exceed 330 volts? Those glitches exist only when a consumer 'knows' by ignoring numbers even printed on the box.


No 160 volt spike exists during power on. During power on, voltage is at or *below* 120 volts. No power on voltage approaches anything near to 330 volts. I make this point repeatedly. So many 'know' by routinely ignoring these numbers.

If damage is created by "little spikes and glitches happen all of the time", then everyone lines up daily to buy new dimmer switches, digital clocks, and GFCIs. Protection inside even least robust appliances makes little spikes and glitches irrelevant. Little spikes and glitches, invented to create fear and sales, do no damage.

All appliances contain protection. Destructive surges - typically once even seven years - can overwhelm that protection. Only earthed protectors - ie the 'whole house' protector - addresses typically destructive surge (and lesser transients).

How to kludge a 'whole house' protector. Cut a plug-in protector's power cord as short as possible. Connect that protector to a receptacle attached to the breaker box. Then that protector can act somewhat like a 'whole house' protector. Short to earth with increased separation between the protector and electronics. And that protector is not on a rug or desktop covered in papers. Another plug-in protector problem averted.

Effective protectors (even 100 years ago) have been for potentially destructive surges - ie lightning. Little spikes and glitches, also called noise, are made irrelevant by protection already inside every appliance. And obviously, 160 volts is not created when an appliance powers on.

Plug-in protectors provide no effective protection. Do not claim to provide that protection. In rare cases, can create house fires. And sometimes make damage to adjacent appliances easier.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
.

27 Jul 2010   #54
glennc

Windows 7 Ultimate
 
 

Hey Westom,
Just when I get a plan you put a fly in the ointment. The surge suppressor I was eyeing was a 12 outlet with space for OORC 6 Tranformer plugs, plus a phone line supressor at 3800+ joules IIRC. You, to make it exactly clear for me, offer IYO absolutely no benefit under any circumstances and could create a fire? I want to be clear on this matter due to opposing viewpoint, and I want to understand yours completely.
Thanks
glennc
My System SpecsSystem Spec
27 Jul 2010   #55
Mellon Head

Win 7 Pro x64/Win 10 Pro x64 dual boot
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by westom View Post
Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Mellon Head View Post
It is not meant to protect you from lightning, or any other high discharge electrical event. What it is meant to protect you from is the day to day bouncing of the standard AC line voltage that is present in our electrical delivery system. Little spikes and glitches happen all of the time. If you have a power failure, when the power comes back on, there can be large spikes in voltage as the AC stabilizes (as high as 160 Volts in some cases.)
Let's examine that voltage number. On every protector's box is a required number: let-through voltage 330 volts. A protector does nothing - remains inert - until voltage exceeds 330 volts. Where are daily glitches that exceed 330 volts? Those glitches exist only when a consumer 'knows' by ignoring numbers even printed on the box.


No 160 volt spike exists during power on. During power on, voltage is at or *below* 120 volts. No power on voltage approaches anything near to 330 volts. I make this point repeatedly. So many 'know' by routinely ignoring these numbers.

If damage is created by "little spikes and glitches happen all of the time", then everyone lines up daily to buy new dimmer switches, digital clocks, and GFCIs. Protection inside even least robust appliances makes little spikes and glitches irrelevant. Little spikes and glitches, invented to create fear and sales, do no damage.

All appliances contain protection. Destructive surges - typically once even seven years - can overwhelm that protection. Only earthed protectors - ie the 'whole house' protector - addresses typically destructive surge (and lesser transients).

How to kludge a 'whole house' protector. Cut a plug-in protector's power cord as short as possible. Connect that protector to a receptacle attached to the breaker box. Then that protector can act somewhat like a 'whole house' protector. Short to earth with increased separation between the protector and electronics. And that protector is not on a rug or desktop covered in papers. Another plug-in protector problem averted.

Effective protectors (even 100 years ago) have been for potentially destructive surges - ie lightning. Little spikes and glitches, also called noise, are made irrelevant by protection already inside every appliance. And obviously, 160 volts is not created when an appliance powers on.

Plug-in protectors provide no effective protection. Do not claim to provide that protection. In rare cases, can create house fires. And sometimes make damage to adjacent appliances easier.
You clearly do not know how surge suppression works. You don't get 160 Volts when you turn on the piece of equipment. Turning on the piece of equipment is irrelevant to this discussion. You are taking my comments, and those of others, completely out of context, and ranting about about a subject that you obviously only have an incomplete grasp of.

You are providing inaccurate information to support your argument and your personal bias, for reasons that I can't understand, except for the possibility that you might be trolling. You're frightening the OP with this inaccurate information for no reason at all.

I'm not arguing with you any more, and neither should anyone else.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
27 Jul 2010   #56
CarlTR6

Windows 7 Ultimate 32 bit
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Mellon Head View Post
Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by glennc View Post
Thanks Gentlemen,
I am catching on. I think I follow Westom in the ultimate protection. Just wish I had a ballpark idea. I know it ain't gonna be cheap.
I would take westom's ranting with a grain of salt, and follow the advice of karlsnooks. I don't know westom's credentials, if he has any at all, but karl is an electrical engineer and is giving you sound advice.

The bottom line is nothing that a consumer can afford will completely stop a lightning strike. There are things that will mitigate the damage, like lightning arrestors, but nothing is guaranteed. You're talking about millions of Volts at very high current. Lightning will go where it wants to. 'Nuff said.

As for the claim that surge arrestors are a waste of money, you need to understand what a surge protected power bar is meant to do. It is not meant to protect you from lightning, or any other high discharge electrical event. What it is meant to protect you from is the day to day bouncing of the standard AC line voltage that is present in our electrical delivery system. Little spikes and glitches happen all of the time. If you have a power failure, when the power comes back on, there can be large spikes in voltage as the AC stabilizes (as high as 160 Volts in some cases.) The surge protector basically absorbs these little glitches and bumps, and then bleeds them off to ground, preventing damage to your equipment.

That's how they work. They aren't a cure all, and you should definitely not rely on one to protect you from an electrical storm. I use a UPS for backup, and it feeds a surge arrestor power bar that my PC is plugged into. And that's all.

And I unplug in a storm.
Spot on and very good advice. I would rep you again if I could.

Glenn, Mellon Head is right. I am not an electrical engineer although I have plenty of practical experience. I was born and raised in Florida and have maintained residences here all of my life even when I was stationed else where.

Even whole house grounded lightning arrestor systems can and will fail if you receive a direct strike. I think this was mentioned in an earlier post where a business used very good commercial equipment. Will these systems increase protecton? Most definitely. You have to decide your risk factor vs what you can afford remembering that nothing is 100% effective.

In all my years of living in Florida, I have lost two modems to lightning because I forgot to unplug the telephone lines from them. I have never lost a computer or any major appliance. I have lost several telephones over the years.

Like Mellon Head, for my computer I use a sure strip and a UPS. The primary purpose of the UPS is to allow me to properly shut down in the event of a power outage - which we have about once every two months and that doesn't count the momentary power flickers. When a big thunderstorm is heading my way, I shutdown and unplug the power strip. We do not have whole house protection where I live now. To me, the cost is not worth the low risk of a direct strike - in which event, the whole house system would fail anyway. If I am unfortunate enough to receive a direct strike, my homeowners will take care of the damage with a $500 deductible. This is what I have decided on after my risk analysis and based on a life time of living in Florida. Oh, and I lived in the Ft Myers area for ten years.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
27 Jul 2010   #57
glennc

Windows 7 Ultimate
 
 

Thank You Gentlemen,
It is difficult to weigh everyone's opinions appropriately. I've lived down here mostly since longer than I will say and have never lost anything except my monitor and that was a direct strike. I like the idea of a whole house protector but am unable at this time to venture into the likely cost. I appreciate the help, opinions and safequards by the member of this forum.
Here it is a pain as storms roll in every afternoon, everyday for weeks on end. For now, I will feel more secure with a UPS and surge protectors than not.
Mille Gracie,
glennc
My System SpecsSystem Spec
27 Jul 2010   #58
karlsnooks

MS Windows 7 Ultimate SP1 64-bit
 
 

Glen,
Glad that we could be of assistance.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
27 Jul 2010   #59
mimrah

Windows 7
 
 

I always unplug everything inthe house when I hear a storm comming

I can run my laptop with battery so it's a all go
My System SpecsSystem Spec
27 Jul 2010   #60
CarlTR6

Windows 7 Ultimate 32 bit
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by glennc View Post
Thank You Gentlemen,
It is difficult to weigh everyone's opinions appropriately. I've lived down here mostly since longer than I will say and have never lost anything except my monitor and that was a direct strike. I like the idea of a whole house protector but am unable at this time to venture into the likely cost. I appreciate the help, opinions and safequards by the member of this forum.
Here it is a pain as storms roll in every afternoon, everyday for weeks on end. For now, I will feel more secure with a UPS and surge protectors than not.
Mille Gracie,
glennc
Glenn, I concur with your decision. You are at the height of the rainy season now and it is not unusual for you to get two, three and more thunderstorms each day. I think you plan is solid and this has been a good thread.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
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