Can I update to a 1.5 TB internal HDD on a 6 year old Dell xps9000

Itaregid said:

Ever try explosives?

Well not for drives, but I did used to work 2015 feet underground at the San Manual, Arizona copper mine - at the time, the world's largest underground copper mine. And I used to set a of bunch dynamite (about 20lbs worth) charges twice a day (at lunch and end of shift). Quite fun - except for the "NG" or "bang heads" - (really horrific nitroglycerin induced headaches) you got every time you handled the stuff. After I was there for awhile I moved to driving an underground train (80 miles of track on that 2015ft level!) and hauled several tons of dynamite every day. Because I handled that stuff, I got hazard pay bonus so I was paid $12/hour - and that was in 1971 - BIG money for a 18 - 19 year old back then.

@Mega7User - Thanks for posting that and yeah, I remember seeing that years ago. But it is important to understand it does not apply today or here. First, that was for ancient "ATA" specification drives. That is the legacy drive technology used before EIDE drives. And EIDE drives have since been superseded by today's SATA drives. While all 3 technologies use spinning platters, R/W heads and the alignment of magnetic particles to represent 1s and 0s, the similarities between antique ATA drives and today's SATA drives pretty much ends there.

Second, as noted in that white paper, those hidden areas could only be accessed and used by knowledgeable users (primarily bad guys) and only by using "specific open source tools" to hide data in those locations from forensic investigators. Normal users could not see it.

Therefore, no normal user, no drive maker, no operating system would ever stuff user data into those locations. It could not even be done by accident! So don't worry about destroying your drives to protect your personal data from prying eyes. A simple one-pass wipe is plenty - unless you really do have something "incriminating" to hide from law enforcement! Bad guys are lazy. No bad guy is going to waste his or her time if he or she has to work at it that hard.

Must agree to disagree with you on most of your post. Page 7 'top';

The ability to obfuscate evidence makes the HPA and DCO a concern for investigators. When imaging an HDD, the investigator must be aware that any HDD that supports ATA-6 and above can contain HPA and or DCO. However, if the HDD supports ATA-4 or 5, it only has the potential to contain HPA. Given that the majority of current HDDs support ATA-6 and above, it is extremely important for current forensics practitioners to be aware of the HPA and DCO and use appropriate tools.

'So', with that said, SATA drives are only different inasmuch as they are accessed with a serial interface (ATA-6 standard and above, I believe). I am still trying to learn some about AF SATA drives but so far it seems to me they are still ATA drives accessed serially but with much higher cluster sizes allowing much larger capacities. Drives with platters only differ in transfer speed, and the mechanism by which the data is transferred/processed from the computer bus to the platter through the drive interface. In this short research I find ( What is ATA-6? (with picture) ). I am fully aware platter HDD's will, and are, still available (and will be for years to come). I foresee (with MS and others going to remote locations for 'user' data) the slow conversion from user only storage, to this (sic) 'cloud' based storage. As of now, MS doesn't even recognize you owning the MS software, your only licensed to 'use' it. Gone long ago is the OS disk in your hands.

Why you chose to include a comment on "incriminating" (underlined, as if to imply nefarious intent or other) is beyond me. I stated MS and HDD manufacturers can, and probably do, access these hidden locations. What is stored there (remember access of IS possible, and was possible 10 years ago when the article was written) is any ones guess. I agree generally JQP cannot access this UNLESS they have the tools/access to read such 'information' either gathered, or stored. Just because I cannot demonstrate what is there, does not mean nothing IS being put there. I am sure this (minimum) 10 year old information, has been 'e x p a n d e d' in capability. I for one destroy any HDD that I have used before. One note comparable to this topic, people who are conned into 'donating' used cellphone/flipphones usually have no idea they are giving away a huge amount of their information/data to the 'totally unknown' people they are giving their phones to. I say be aware and err on a side of extreme caution! Especially on a piece of hardware that was in use for as long as it was wherever you visited/did with it.

Mega7User said:

I stated MS and HDD manufacturers can, and probably do, access these hidden locations. What is stored there (remember access of IS possible, and was possible 10 years ago when the article was written) is any ones guess. I agree generally JQP cannot access this UNLESS they have the tools/access to read such 'information' either gathered, or stored. Just because I cannot demonstrate what is there, does not mean nothing IS being put there.

HPA was a solution in search of a problem. When it was introduced in the ATA-4 spec computer OEMs were falling over themselves trying to think of clever things they could do with the technology. In the XP era Dell used the HPA for "MediaDirect" and IBM used BEER technology for "Rapid Restore". The technology wasn't necessary for either function, so manufacturers eventually abandoned it.

MediaDirect was a quick booting, stripped down version of Windows that the customer could boot when he only needed a music or movie player. (If you have a Dell from that era, you may remember the button with a house logo on it.) It was installed on a fifth primary partition at the very end of the hard disk, then hidden away as a HPA. When you boot with the MediaDirect button instead of the regular power button, the MBR unhid the HPA on the fly and booted into Media Center, but the rest of the time you didn't even know that fifth partition was there. Even the usual partitioning tools most people use didn't know it was there, which kept consumers from inadvertantly tinkering with it.

The BEER was totally weird. It was a second partition table in the very last sector of the hard disk, like the regular partition table in the disk's first sector, except this second partition table pointed to partitions that grew *backwards* from the end of the disk toward the front. Those secret partitions were then hidden using HPA, which kept users and standard partitioning tools from even knowing they were there. When Rapid Restore was booted the HPA was unhidden on the fly, the BEER partition table was read, and one of the secret partitions was booted to do a factory restore. IIRC, the user could also periodically back up the system using Rapid Restore, though in that case your visible hard disk space would decrease as more of the disk's physical space would become hidden inside the HPA.

With the right tools, it's not hard to determine if your disk has a HPA. One such tool is HDAT2. Just compare the size the disk is claiming to be (the ATA "IDENTIFY DEVICE" command) with "READ NATIVE MAX ADDRESS". A mismatch will indicate part of the disk has been hidden.

Mega7User said:

Why you chose to include a comment on "incriminating" (underlined, as if to imply nefarious intent or other) is beyond me.

I say that because no "honest" person needs to "hide" their data in secret locations from "forensic investigators", that's why. Bad guys are not going to waste their time when there are so many easier targets all around them. Only law enforcement and government spy agencies (organizations with deep pockets) would go to such efforts to first, search for such locations, then second, forensically dissect the drive to retrieve any data in those hidden locations. So who do they target? Criminals and others with nefarious intent!

Normal "honest" people with nothing "incriminating" to hide use passwords and encryption and safe deposit boxes to protect their data from bad guys and nosey neighbors. They don't search the Internet for special software to access secret storage locations (that don't exist on modern drives!!!) to hide their data from "forensic investigators".

I stated MS and HDD manufacturers can, and probably do, access these hidden locations.

Oh bull feathers! Time for the tin foil hats folks! Now Seagate, Western Digital and Microsoft are STEALING your most secretive data and stashing it in secret locations on your hard drives! Yeah right! Then I guess they are sending their "operatives" to recycling centers and land fills to dig out discarded drives so they can retrieve the data. Because using secret locations and operatives is so much easier for Seagate and WD than to embed hidden malware on their drives to steal our data and "phone home" with it. And because operatives are easier for Microsoft than embedding undetectable malware in Windows to steal our data and phone home too.

It is ludicrous, I say again, totally ludicrous to suggest Seagate, WD, and Microsoft do anything of the sort. Where's your proof? A 10 year old paper on obsolete technologies is no proof at all.

This is so ridiculous it is beyond belief. There are many tin foil hat wearing, paranoid conspiracy theorist out there (not to mention legitimate security and consumer protection organizations) who happen to also be excellent hackers. IF Seagate, WD and MS where conducting such secretive activities it would have been discovered and exposed long ago!

If these secret locations were true, are all the Linux developers just plain stupid for not knowing about them? Or is only Microsoft evil and trying to access our bank accounts and stealing our social security and insurance numbers?

These companies have every incentive to protect our data, not steal it.

Mega7User said:

any HDD that supports ATA-6 and above can contain HPA and or DCO

That was his bold, not mine. The sad part here with Mega7User's paranoid rumormongering is he is spreading these totally unfounded falsehoods clearly without doing ANY homework on the subject to see if what he is spewing has any basis in truth. Which it doesn't.

Do today's SATA drives support ATA-6 (or ATA-5 or ATA-4) and thus HPA and DCO? No! Why? Because ATA-6 is an obsolete ATA protocol not supported in SATA.

What is ATA-6? Note this is the same source he cited! Yet clearly he did not read it, or understand it - especially the last paragraph.

@Mega7User - to be sure, you are entitled to express your opinions and I will defend your right to do so truth and nail. But I will use the same vigor to thwart the spreading of falsehoods and misinformation and to defend those falsely accused. So nothing personal.

If a nefarious entity went to the trouble of stealing your data, why on earth would it stash it in a hidden area on your HDD when it would be easier to upload it while they had access to your data? The only way any of your personal is likely to wind up in a hidden space is IF you put it there yourself (and, frankly, there are better ways of encrypting or hiding data).

Exactly. And of course, this also assumes there were such hidden areas on today's hard drives, but that is just not the case either.

I sympathize with your comment about tin foil hats. But the sad part to me is not that it is overly, too quickly, or incorrectly used, but that it is too often totally applicable! There are just so many conspiracy theorists (and Microsoft bashers and irresponsible members of the IT press seeking attention) who either refuse to accept, or don't bother to learn the facts - especially when it comes of Microsoft. And worse, they then perpetuate the problem through rumormongering, without bothering to verifying their facts. Even ZDNet used the term.

It is okay to be paranoid over security, as long as we understand (and accept) the facts. This is especially true because we know for a fact there are bad guys out there intent on doing us financial and even physical harm. But it is not Seagate, WD or Microsoft. Extreme positions are almost never good. While being paranoid is better than being totally lax on security, the best posture is in the middle. That means to be informed or what I call, "security aware", take the necessary "safe computing" precautions (like keeping your system updated and secured), and have good user discipline - especially with unsolicited downloads, links, popups and attachments - that is, don't be "click-happy".

Itaregid said:

Do today's SATA drives support ATA-6 (or ATA-5 or ATA-4) and thus HPA and DCO? No! Why? Because ATA-6 is an obsolete ATA protocol not supported in SATA.

Interesting. Somebody better let Seagate know, then, because I was just able to create a 50GB HPA on one of their 500GB SATA drives.

SATA means Serial ATA, and still abides by the ATA command set.

Itaregid said:

Mega7User said:

Why you chose to include a comment on "incriminating" (underlined, as if to imply nefarious intent or other) is beyond me.

I say that because no "honest" person needs to "hide" their data in secret locations from "forensic investigators", that's why. Bad guys are not going to waste their time when there are so many easier targets all around them. Only law enforcement and government spy agencies (organizations with deep pockets) would go to such efforts to first, search for such locations, then second, forensically dissect the drive to retrieve any data in those hidden locations. So who do they target? Criminals and others with nefarious intent!

Normal "honest" people with nothing "incriminating" to hide use passwords and encryption and safe deposit boxes to protect their data from bad guys and nosey neighbors. They don't search the Internet for special software to access secret storage locations (that don't exist on modern drives!!!) to hide their data from "forensic investigators".

I stated MS and HDD manufacturers can, and probably do, access these hidden locations.

Oh bull feathers! Time for the tin foil hats folks! Now Seagate, Western Digital and Microsoft are STEALING your most secretive data and stashing it in secret locations on your hard drives! Yeah right! Then I guess they are sending their "operatives" to recycling centers and land fills to dig out discarded drives so they can retrieve the data. Because using secret locations and operatives is so much easier for Seagate and WD than to embed hidden malware on their drives to steal our data and "phone home" with it. And because operatives are easier for Microsoft than embedding undetectable malware in Windows to steal our data and phone home too.

It is ludicrous, I say again, totally ludicrous to suggest Seagate, WD, and Microsoft do anything of the sort. Where's your proof? A 10 year old paper on obsolete technologies is no proof at all.

This is so ridiculous it is beyond belief. There are many tin foil hat wearing, paranoid conspiracy theorist out there (not to mention legitimate security and consumer protection organizations) who happen to also be excellent hackers. IF Seagate, WD and MS where conducting such secretive activities it would have been discovered and exposed long ago!

If these secret locations were true, are all the Linux developers just plain stupid for not knowing about them? Or is only Microsoft evil and trying to access our bank accounts and stealing our social security and insurance numbers?

These companies have every incentive to protect our data, not steal it.

Mega7User said:

any HDD that supports ATA-6 and above can contain HPA and or DCO

That was his bold, not mine. The sad part here with Mega7User's paranoid rumormongering is he is spreading these totally unfounded falsehoods clearly without doing ANY homework on the subject to see if what he is spewing has any basis in truth. Which it doesn't.

Do today's SATA drives support ATA-6 (or ATA-5 or ATA-4) and thus HPA and DCO? No! Why? Because ATA-6 is an obsolete ATA protocol not supported in SATA.

What is ATA-6? Note this is the same source he cited! Yet clearly he did not read it, or understand it - especially the last paragraph.

@Mega7User - to be sure, you are entitled to express your opinions and I will defend your right to do so truth and nail. But I will use the same vigor to thwart the spreading of falsehoods and misinformation and to defend those falsely accused. So nothing personal.

Lady Fitzgerald said:

While I'm sick and tired of people being too quick to toss around the term "tin foil hat" (even though it does apply in some cases, including this one), I have to agree with Itaregid on this one. If a nefarious entity went to the trouble of stealing your data, why on earth would it stash it in a hidden area on your HDD when it would be easier to upload it while they had access to your data? The only way any of your personal is likely to wind up in a hidden space is IF you put it there yourself (and, frankly, there are better ways of encrypting or hiding data).

So, again, a single pass wipe of a HDD is plenty for most people since no entity is going to go to the time expense of employing forensics, which will run into the thousands of dollars or more and may or may not be successful, unless they have a good reason to think there is something there worthwhile. If you are someone who has something to hide and you are knowledgeable enough to use any possible hidden space, then you would be knowledgeable enough to be able to remove that hidden data before getting rid of the drive. Or, if you confined your nefarious data to the normally accessable areas of the drive, just run a three pass wipe and call it day. No one will be able to get at your data then.

Quit worrying about it; it will prematurely age you.

Itaregid said:

If a nefarious entity went to the trouble of stealing your data, why on earth would it stash it in a hidden area on your HDD when it would be easier to upload it while they had access to your data? The only way any of your personal is likely to wind up in a hidden space is IF you put it there yourself (and, frankly, there are better ways of encrypting or hiding data).

Exactly. And of course, this also assumes there were such hidden areas on today's hard drives, but that is just not the case either.

I sympathize with your comment about tin foil hats. But the sad part to me is not that it is overly, too quickly, or incorrectly used, but that it is too often totally applicable! There are just so many conspiracy theorists (and Microsoft bashers and irresponsible members of the IT press seeking attention) who either refuse to accept, or don't bother to learn the facts - especially when it comes of Microsoft. And worse, they then perpetuate the problem through rumormongering, without bothering to verifying their facts. Even ZDNet used the term.

It is okay to be paranoid over security, as long as we understand (and accept) the facts. This is especially true because we know for a fact there are bad guys out there intent on doing us financial and even physical harm. But it is not Seagate, WD or Microsoft. Extreme positions are almost never good. While being paranoid is better than being totally lax on security, the best posture is in the middle. That means to be informed or what I call, "security aware", take the necessary "safe computing" precautions (like keeping your system updated and secured), and have good user discipline - especially with unsolicited downloads, links, popups and attachments - that is, don't be "click-happy".

:) The both of you burying your heads in the sand and attributing things said as mine reflects the ignorance you have about the human animal. A capability existing (and it does), means it is probably in use a lot more than people would believe (Except you two as a minimum). Most of the statements spewed forth as mine and agreed to by the both of you need your review, they are and were not my words! Denial and ignorance causes quite the character assassination, doesn't it? Read post 66. For the record, I OWN stating MS and HDD manufacturers can store information in hidden areas of the HDD. I don't care if you believe it or not. I also OWN the statement that information is highly coveted, acquired, and sold. What, have you 'donated old cellphone/flip-phones with data on them and got your ID stolen? So, after all the denial that hidden sections of a modern HDD (as referenced) can and do exist (again, read post 66), I'll let you both off the hook for attacking someone because of ignorance. It isn't the first time, and damn sure will not be the last. Careful, breathing sand too much can make you sick. No need to reply, I have to replace my tin foil hat. :)

Thank you dg1261, for your demonstrated example denied by one and agreed to by the other that was clearly posted about and sourced on Pg 7 (top) of the referenced .pdf (from over 10 years ago). TTFN!

Lady Fitzgerald said:

Mega7User said:

Itaregid said:

I say that because no "honest" person needs to "hide" their data in secret locations from "forensic investigators", that's why. Bad guys are not going to waste their time when there are so many easier targets all around them. Only law enforcement and government spy agencies (organizations with deep pockets) would go to such efforts to first, search for such locations, then second, forensically dissect the drive to retrieve any data in those hidden locations. So who do they target? Criminals and others with nefarious intent!

Normal "honest" people with nothing "incriminating" to hide use passwords and encryption and safe deposit boxes to protect their data from bad guys and nosey neighbors. They don't search the Internet for special software to access secret storage locations (that don't exist on modern drives!!!) to hide their data from "forensic investigators".

Oh bull feathers! Time for the tin foil hats folks! Now Seagate, Western Digital and Microsoft are STEALING your most secretive data and stashing it in secret locations on your hard drives! Yeah right! Then I guess they are sending their "operatives" to recycling centers and land fills to dig out discarded drives so they can retrieve the data. Because using secret locations and operatives is so much easier for Seagate and WD than to embed hidden malware on their drives to steal our data and "phone home" with it. And because operatives are easier for Microsoft than embedding undetectable malware in Windows to steal our data and phone home too.

It is ludicrous, I say again, totally ludicrous to suggest Seagate, WD, and Microsoft do anything of the sort. Where's your proof? A 10 year old paper on obsolete technologies is no proof at all.

This is so ridiculous it is beyond belief. There are many tin foil hat wearing, paranoid conspiracy theorist out there (not to mention legitimate security and consumer protection organizations) who happen to also be excellent hackers. IF Seagate, WD and MS where conducting such secretive activities it would have been discovered and exposed long ago!

If these secret locations were true, are all the Linux developers just plain stupid for not knowing about them? Or is only Microsoft evil and trying to access our bank accounts and stealing our social security and insurance numbers?

These companies have every incentive to protect our data, not steal it.


That was his bold, not mine. The sad part here with Mega7User's paranoid rumormongering is he is spreading these totally unfounded falsehoods clearly without doing ANY homework on the subject to see if what he is spewing has any basis in truth. Which it doesn't.

Do today's SATA drives support ATA-6 (or ATA-5 or ATA-4) and thus HPA and DCO? No! Why? Because ATA-6 is an obsolete ATA protocol not supported in SATA.

What is ATA-6? Note this is the same source he cited! Yet clearly he did not read it, or understand it - especially the last paragraph.

@Mega7User - to be sure, you are entitled to express your opinions and I will defend your right to do so truth and nail. But I will use the same vigor to thwart the spreading of falsehoods and misinformation and to defend those falsely accused. So nothing personal.

Itaregid said:

Exactly. And of course, this also assumes there were such hidden areas on today's hard drives, but that is just not the case either.

I sympathize with your comment about tin foil hats. But the sad part to me is not that it is overly, too quickly, or incorrectly used, but that it is too often totally applicable! There are just so many conspiracy theorists (and Microsoft bashers and irresponsible members of the IT press seeking attention) who either refuse to accept, or don't bother to learn the facts - especially when it comes of Microsoft. And worse, they then perpetuate the problem through rumormongering, without bothering to verifying their facts. Even ZDNet used the term.

It is okay to be paranoid over security, as long as we understand (and accept) the facts. This is especially true because we know for a fact there are bad guys out there intent on doing us financial and even physical harm. But it is not Seagate, WD or Microsoft. Extreme positions are almost never good. While being paranoid is better than being totally lax on security, the best posture is in the middle. That means to be informed or what I call, "security aware", take the necessary "safe computing" precautions (like keeping your system updated and secured), and have good user discipline - especially with unsolicited downloads, links, popups and attachments - that is, don't be "click-happy".

:) The both of you burying your heads in the sand and attributing things said as mine reflects the ignorance you have about the human animal. A capability existing (and it does), means it is probably in use a lot more than people would believe (Except you two as a minimum). Most of the statements spewed forth as mine and agreed to by the both of you need your review, they are and were not my words! Denial and ignorance causes quite the character assassination, doesn't it? Read post 66. For the record, I OWN stating MS and HDD manufacturers can store information in hidden areas of the HDD. I don't care if you believe it or not. I also OWN the statement that information is highly coveted, acquired, and sold. What, have you 'donated old cellphone/flip-phones with data on them and got your ID stolen? So, after all the denial that hidden sections of a modern HDD (as referenced) can and do exist (again, read post 66), I'll let you both off the hook for attacking someone because of ignorance. It isn't the first time, and damn sure will not be the last. Careful, breathing sand too much can make you sick. No need to reply, I have to replace my tin foil hat. :)

Thank you dg1261, for your demonstrated example denied by one and agreed to by the other that was clearly posted about and sourced on Pg 7 (top) of the referenced .pdf (from over 10 years ago). TTFN!

All right, buddy, you need to back off calling me ignorant and saying I'm misquoting you, especially when you are misquoting me! First, I never even mentioned you specifically in my post that you quoted, Second, I never denied that it is possible for there to be hidden areas on a HDD. I merely pointed out that the only way any user information in any hidden areas would have to be put there by the user because it would make no sense for a third party to put it there when it would be simpler to just upload the data while it had access to the drive. You did make the statement that you destroyed drives because of hidden areas of drives; I've been pointing out that there is no need for such draconian measures when simply wiping a drive with a single pass will render your data inaccessible to all but the those with most expensive and time consuming forensic methods of extracting data and only three passes will eliminate even that danger.

First, I'm not your 'buddy'. Second, agreeing with the other member on various assertions HE/SHE made as in your 'tin hat' comment "(even though it does apply in some cases, including this one)" & " if you confined your nefarious data to the normally accessable areas of the drive". Your words, I never said I had any 'nefarious data', your character assassination 'buddy?' did and you own your association to it as demonstrated. There are more inferences but I am moving on. I personally don't care if you want to own your own comments, just leave me out of your attempts to degrade someone else. I am finished with you two in this off-topic tit-for-tat. Go with good health, and leave me out of your discussions in this post. If not have fun, but OWN your own comments and passive-aggressive behavior disguised as 'help?' or veiled attempts to belittle.

OP, hope you have solved your HDD upgrade.