Windows 7 Forums
Welcome to Windows 7 Forums. Our forum is dedicated to helping you find support and solutions for any problems regarding your Windows 7 PC be it Dell, HP, Acer, Asus or a custom build. We also provide an extensive Windows 7 tutorial section that covers a wide range of tips and tricks.


Windows 7: Install Win 7 Ultimate x86 or x64 with 4GB RAM?

10 Aug 2009   #11
Antman

 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by AdrianR View Post
...What's the 'sweet' spot in max ram capability where one would be better off using x86 vs x64?...
2GB.


My System SpecsSystem Spec
.
10 Aug 2009   #12
AdrianR

Windows XP
 
 

That's the minimum value as quoted by Microsoft though? Companies are usually very forgiving when stating their minimum values.

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Antman View Post
2GB.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
10 Aug 2009   #13
johngalt

 

I have posted a screen shot in another topic about what I have running on my system. You can easily verify my system specifications to the left there under my user name. And yet, even with what I currently have running I have over half my RAM available. I have a lot of things running right now, and if I were to kill a good many of my processes down, I can easily achieve 2.5 GB or more free.

TBH, what Antman wrote was not only perfectly logical but astutely correct. You simply do not have enough of a basis in the programming world to understand the differences between 64bit processing and 32bit processing, and if you think you are ever going to run out of RAM with 4 GB installed, then you'll be facing the same problem regardless of whether you are using a 32bit OS or a 64bit OS. W7 is far more advanced than you think it is in terms of the aggressive paging system as well as in terms of making use of other resources available to it to make your application usage, switching and mutli-tasking as seamless as possible.

Check out my screen shots to prove it:

84 processes running - and that is without my Saitek Cyborg Rumble Pad (controller) utility....
Install Win 7 Ultimate x86 or x64 with 4GB RAM?-w7-rtm-resource-usage-1.png

over 2 GB free...
Install Win 7 Ultimate x86 or x64 with 4GB RAM?-w7-rtm-resource-usage-2.png

Trust us when we say that going 32bit will hamper your ability to use the OS as it was meant to be used.


My System SpecsSystem Spec
.

10 Aug 2009   #14
Antman

 

I have read and re-read the questions posed by AdrianR. I am attempting to frame a response that matches his frame of reference, and I cannot.

It is as if we are being asked to compare a straight 6 engine with a V8 - which one will consume more or less fuel for the relative work performed. It would come closer to a valid analogy if we were to compare a steam engine to internal combustion.

AdrianR - I apologize that I cannot frame an answer that you can easily digest. I can assure you that your concerns about the page file hindering performance are weighed on the wrong scale.

"Unless I'm missing something, even Microsoft says you need 2GB minimum RAM for x64 and only 1GB minimum RAM for x86. That means, according to Microsoft, x64 uses (reserves?) 1GB more RAM than x86, right off the bat." Yes, you are missing something and I do not know what to say - it just doesn't work that way.

I am not hard-capped at 4GB - but I am virtually capped. I will not put any more money into this machine. My largest consumers of RAM - CS4 and Premier - simply blast through the work I subject them to - and I often run them concurrently.

USB 2.0 throughput is more of a hinderance to my platform performance than my memory capacity.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
10 Aug 2009   #15
AdrianR

Windows XP
 
 

1) Thank you for your post, and your screenpic. That's the kind of hard data I was looking for.

2) My career is as a computer programmer, currently working with Java. In fact, my whole 19 year career has been as a programmer in Java, PowerBuilder, Visual Basic, C++, C, C#, and others. I realize we are strangers, and you don't know me, and these are the Internets, so I have no way of proving this, but I do have an understanding of how operating systems works, how much memory they allocate, and how many applications can run simultaneously before real memory is used up and the OS starts paging out applications memory to/from the hard drive.

What I DIDN'T know, and was asking about, was how x64 works, as all of my knowledge is x86 based. As far as I know, at the end of the day, an app, no matter what kind of OS, needs to run on the RAM chips that are installed on the mother board on the computer, and the OS handles the management of the memory it uses. That the difference has to do with memory address sizes than anything else. If this is wrong, I'd LOVE to learn about it, hence my creating an account and my original post here about that. I came here to hopefully learn, not be talked down to.

I STILL haven 't seen anything by anyone that says that with x64 you don't need to worry about how much RAM is left over for applications. At the end of the day, the OS needs RAM for itself first, then it allocates RAM for apps that are running. I was just trying to figure out how much REALISTIC overhead x64 Windows 7 has vs. Windows 7 x86, in determining if I have enough 'elbow room' on my PC with 4GB worth of RAM to run MULTIPLE LARGE applications simultaneously without paging to the hard drive. From running the Eclipse and NetBeans IDKs to World of Warcraft to Firefox with 15 tabs open, I use my PC, and I use it hard.

Using Microsoft's minimum numbers, is it better to have 3GB of RAM for applications in x86 vs. 2GB of RAM for apps in x64, that's what I was trying to figure out. That's all. Wasn't trying to start a x64 vs x86 fight.

Anyway, I'll stop here, before someone sends the x64 police to my house.

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by johngalt View Post
I have posted a screen shot in another topic about what I have running on my system. You can easily verify my system specifications to the left there under my user name. And yet, even with what I currently have running I have over half my RAM available. I have a lot of things running right now, and if I were to kill a good many of my processes down, I can easily achieve 2.5 GB or more free.

TBH, what Antman wrote was not only perfectly logical but astutely correct. You simply do not have enough of a basis in the programming world to understand the differences between 64bit processing and 32bit processing, and if you think you are ever going to run out of RAM with 4 GB installed, then you'll be facing the same problem regardless of whether you are using a 32bit OS or a 64bit OS. W7 is far more advanced than you think it is in terms of the aggressive paging system as well as in terms of making use of other resources available to it to make your application usage, switching and mutli-tasking as seamless as possible.

Check out my screen shots to prove it:

84 processes running - and that is without my Saitek Cyborg Rumble Pad (controller) utility....
Attachment 22498

over 2 GB free...
Attachment 22499

Trust us when we say that going 32bit will hamper your ability to use the OS as it was meant to be used.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
10 Aug 2009   #16
AdrianR

Windows XP
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Antman View Post
I have read and re-read the questions posed by AdrianR. I am attempting to frame a response that matches his frame of reference, and I cannot.

It is as if we are being asked to compare a straight 6 engine with a V8 - which one will consume more or less fuel for the relative work performed. It would come closer to a valid analogy if we were to compare a steam engine to internal combustion.

AdrianR - I apologize that I cannot frame an answer that you can easily digest. I can assure you that your concerns about the page file hindering performance are weighed on the wrong scale.

"Unless I'm missing something, even Microsoft says you need 2GB minimum RAM for x64 and only 1GB minimum RAM for x86. That means, according to Microsoft, x64 uses (reserves?) 1GB more RAM than x86, right off the bat." Yes, you are missing something and I do not know what to say - it just doesn't work that way.

I am not hard-capped at 4GB - but I am virtually capped. I will not put any more money into this machine. My largest consumers of RAM - CS4 and Premier - simply blast through the work I subject them to - and I often run them concurrently.

USB 2.0 throughput is more of a hinderance to my platform performance than my memory capacity.
Thank you for replying and trying again to help out, sincerely do appreciate that.

By hard-capped, I meant the maximum amount of RAM that the motherboard of the PC can take. I do understand how OS's can virtualize more than the max hardware RAM by paging to/from the hard drive, but that virtualization takes a performance hit, so I try to NOT page to the hard drive if possible.

You mentioned you run two apps. Maybe that's the crux of the issue. I run a slew of applications simultaneously, both as part of my job as a programmer, as well as just someone who likes to multitask. I already mentioned this in a post I just did, but I run multiple programming IDKs (Eclipse, NetBeans, Visual Studio), large gaming applications (World of Warcraft, Sims 3), Firefox browser with 10+ tabs, email, IM client, plus all of the little apps (like Microsoft Search) that get start automatically.

Because of this, its important for me to know how many apps can be running at the same time before the OS starts virtualizing and pages to the hard drive.

To try and use your car analogy, I'm saying that how much more gas does a V8 use over a V6, because I can only afford to put so much gas in the car before I run out of money, and need to know how far I can travel before the car runs out of gas.

Anyway, I'll just leave it at that. I didn't want my introduction to this community to be one of conflict. I was just trying to find out the memory overhead of x64, as I never believe the amounts stated by the manufacturer, since they usually understate to generate more sales.

Take care.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
10 Aug 2009   #17
Antman

 

No conflict detected at this desk - just a high level discussion. Welcome to SF.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
10 Aug 2009   #18
banderz777

Windows 7 Ultimate X64
 
 

I am running 64 bit with 4 gig's, here is my ram usage.
Install Win 7 Ultimate x86 or x64 with 4GB RAM?-capture2.png


My System SpecsSystem Spec
10 Aug 2009   #19
johngalt

 

Now that you have qualified yourself, it will be a lot easier to discuss things.

We realize that no one comes here to be talked down to, but until you establish your credentials, we don't know if we're dealing with a computer illiterate person who does not know device manager from system properties, or if we are dealing with a hardware OEM employee / tier II tech support employee / anything else.

We have no *choice* but to talk down to a person at their level b/c the only common denominator is that everyone will be able to understand it if we use rather simply terms. remember, even though you may be asking he question initially, others will be coming to the forum as well, here to read about various issues and / or to see if there own particular question has been answered or to ask similar, yet not quite identical questions.

That being said, I can install the latest NetBeans Full IDE (although the servers will be turned off as I have no use for them right now) and I always run Fx with multiple tabs open, plus my desktop gadgets, plus Thunderbird, and I can install a game or two as well (although, to be honest, I don't game when I am working and vice verse - I usually reserve my gaming time for a time when I can knowing shut down some of my apps for a smoother game play, as I like to amp games to the max settings whenever possible) and give you a fair run - but I don't know if my machine is comparable to yours, or if it is much more powerful, or much less powerful. These sort of qualitative answers cannot be given simply because W7, but its very nature in terms of the number of lines of code in the OS and the things that it loads, will always be paging. in another thread (the same I alluded to previously) a user with 12 GB of RAM was complaining that he had very little free RAM - I tried to make him understand that since he had so much more RAM than Windows was normally accustomed to it was paging a lot less, and since he had an SSD and had turned off Paging (which the guides say turn off paging for the SSDs only - if your entire system is SSD-based, it's rather pointless to try to do things like game, etc, when it is always going to use an enormous amount of memory and will inevitably page) that his RAM usage was going to sky rocket abnormally.

Similarly, since you only have 4 GB, it is gig to page. There is no doubt about that.

However, the memory management in 7 has come a long way from Vista, and is so far removed from XP and previous OSs that it's like comparing apples to turkeys.

High memory use applications will always, by default, cause a lot more paging. W7 is the most efficient Windows OS when it comes to resource management and paging that I have used - and I used them all except ME, W2.0 and w1.0. This is by far one of the most resource efficient OSs out there.

I cannot say much more - if you have specific queries please feel free to ask.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
10 Aug 2009   #20
AdrianR

Windows XP
 
 

TYVM!

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by banderz777 View Post
I am running 64 bit with 4 gig's, here is my ram usage.
Attachment 22504
My System SpecsSystem Spec
Reply

 Install Win 7 Ultimate x86 or x64 with 4GB RAM?




Thread Tools




Similar help and support threads
Thread Forum
Cannot install driver / drivers missing on new install win7 ultimate
Hello, this is my first post on the forum, and I hope you can help me. I have recently been given an HP 6465b probook. It had been dropped and the hard drive had failed. I installed a new hdd and got a copy of Windows 7 ultimate x64. The install went well until I discovered I couldn't connect to...
Drivers
Win 7 Ultimate, clean install, get 0x8004FF91 trying to install MSE
This machine is a Gateway FX-Series laptop, which I bought used a couple of months ago. It came without a drive, so I bought a new 2TB drive to go along with it. I installed Win 7 Ultimate onto it and just a small handful of other programs so far -- a couple of browsers and utilities for my digital...
Windows Updates & Activation
OEM install win7HP64 AU to Ultimate. Need to do fresh install.
Our Acer came with & home pro 64. we did a AU to ultimate64. The laptop is slowing way down and needs a fresh install. Not sure how to do this. Do i use my original BU disks then use my same AU code and redownload or will i need to call microsoft? the Acer also has a 0 partition. so i'm just lost...
Installation & Setup
Can I install Windows 7 Ultimate in Japanese as a first install
Hi All, I want to install W7U on a new build comp. but want to install it as Japanese for the wife can I do this or can I only change the language later.
Installation & Setup
How would I go get Hold'em from vista Ultimate and install it to windows 7 Ultimate
Is it possible to transfer the hold'em poker game files from windows vista ultimate to windows 7 ultimate ? If so how can I do that ? Can someone make a tutorial on that ?
Gaming
64 Bit Win 7 Ultimate Install Not Possible?
I have a 64 Bit Win 7 Ultimate host running. Downloaded the Microsoft Virtual PC 64 Bit. Created a Win 7 32 Bit OS Virtual Machine. Work great. Now I am also trying to create a 64 Bit Win 7 Virtual Machine and as soon as the OS Setup Starts, I get the error that it is not possible as I am...
Virtualization


Our Sites

Site Links

About Us

Find Us

Windows 7 Forums is an independent web site and has not been authorized, sponsored, or otherwise approved by Microsoft Corporation. "Windows 7" and related materials are trademarks of Microsoft Corp.

Designer Media Ltd

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 18:18.
Twitter Facebook Google+ Seven Forums iOS App Seven Forums Android App