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Windows 7: Win7 installed to SDHC how?

19 Aug 2009   #61
chuckr

XP_Pro, W7_7201, W7RC.vhd, SciLinux5.3, Fedora12, Fedora9_2x, OpenSolaris_09-06
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Night Hawk View Post
What some are asking about is how to install 7 to not from an external hard drive by way of usb there. You can see 7 install by simply mounting the iso stored on an external drive rather then burning it to disk. The Windows installer however will halt itself when attempting a direct install onto any usb drive or device.
If you pull a drive from the external enclosure to see Windows installed on it while inside the case and then returned to the usb enclosure you run right into the exact same problem of no longer seeing the same hardware configurations as well as boot information leading to problems again.
The virtual environment easily allows for the installation while still only being recommended for evaluation and temporary application unless you consider how the XP mode works by allowing old programs to run there avoiding compatibility issues. For running Windows as a main form of dual boot like 7 with Vista or Vista with 7? Not so good!
I seem to have difficulties 'interpreting' your posts, probably due to their indirectness, lack of punctuation, and superfluous verbiage..
So, (I think that this is what you mean, for sake of discussion) :

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Night Hawk View Post
What some are asking is: "How to install 7 TO (not FROM) a USB external hard drive".
Yes, I understand that. The simple answer is that it WILL NOT install to USB or Firewire (IEEE_1394?)
I've posted many pictures of my attempts to install to External USB HDD.
And, warned others that 7 Setup will NOT install to USB or Firewire.
Quote:
You can see 7 install by simply mounting the iso stored on an external drive rather then burning it to disk. The Windows installer however will halt itself when attempting a direct install onto any usb drive or device.
You can mount the iso from almost anywhere that the file exists, however,
Win7 Setup will NOT install to USB or Firewire.
It might be wise, in testing, to have the iso on an "internal" partition, since
Setup/Install doesn't seem to 'like' USB/Firewire.
Quote:
If you pull a drive from the external enclosure to see Windows installed on it while inside the case and then returned to the usb enclosure you run right into the exact same problem of no longer seeing the same hardware configurations as well as boot information leading to problems again.
HDD from enclosure, into mainframe chassis, W7 installed there, HDD back into enclosure...
Then,
The "exact same problem" as what? There was no definition of any other problem, so which "exact same"?

Concerning "hardware configurations" - this could indeed be a factor for Win7, depending upon what was removed (P3 for Ext USB), what was inserted (HDD_1, from enclosure), etc.
I don't know the "testing algorithm" for Win7.
I've seen stuff on XP from Germany and it seemed pretty lax.
Certainly, an added P3 for Ext USB does not bother the XP algorithm for installation or "Activation".

The "boot information" SEEMS to always be gotten from what we usually call the normal ( C:\) drive/partition, prior to the Win7 install.
This is a real 'can-of-worms', and if one really "needs-to-know", one can (with major interpretation difficulties) find lotsa data on this, via the Information_Super-Highway.
The words to search for are:
---------------------------
MBR = Master Boot Record,
Partition table,
Active bit,
Boot sector,
Boot loader,
Boot manager,
BCD (or BCD-store), and much more.
---------------------------
Quote:
The virtual environment easily allows for the installation while still only being recommended for evaluation and temporary application
Any competent "virtual environment" (which is nothing more than running an 'executable' .exe file [application software]) must allow for software OS installation - That is, in fact, the only reason for its existence.
To emulate an "installed" operating system, and carry out the required functions of that particular OS (memy mgnt, disk alloc, time-slices, network, "services", etc).
A program, running another program.
Quote:
unless you consider how the XP mode works by allowing old programs to run there avoiding compatibility issues. For running Windows as a main form of dual boot like 7 with Vista or Vista with 7? Not so good!
Don't understand and can't interpret...
Sorry, too '****-faced' to carry on...

edit: last gasp (til tomorrow)

Win 7 will not INSTALL to USB/Firewire,
However, we can PUT the FILES there, w/o installation.
Then, the problem is to make it work,
i.e. Make it BOOTABLE -- this is the only 'real' problem... (?Piece of Pie...)


My System SpecsSystem Spec
.
19 Aug 2009   #62
Night Hawk

W7 Ultimate x64/W10 Pro x64 dual boot main build-remote pc W10 Pro x64 Insider Preview/W7 Pro x64
 
 

Even when trying to install partition to partition on a usb drive the installation would fail as well when mounting an iso here. The emulation part is easy to understand since you use that to run programs otheriwse incompatible to the present version like 7 you are running.

As far as removing a drive from it's external enclosure, installing Windows on it, and then returning to the enclosure "forget it!" is the basic answer there. The entire boot configuration as well as the access to board controllers and the like is lost on the spot. You may get Windows to load since it was installed but it's far from suitable for any type of dual boot setup.

With eSata however the environment there changes since you are still going into a sata port on the board itself even with a drive on the outside of the case. From drive to eSata port on a case or to a pci adapter out from there direct to the board. Simple formula!

With the exception of the XP mode now available for 7 and Server 2008 when running Windows on a virtual machine you still see quite a few limitations at the present time. Due to that you can't expect everything to run especially gaming and anything resource demanding since you have limited resources to begin with as far as video and lately a somewhat improved sound options.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
20 Aug 2009   #63
chuckr

XP_Pro, W7_7201, W7RC.vhd, SciLinux5.3, Fedora12, Fedora9_2x, OpenSolaris_09-06
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Night Hawk View Post
With eSata however the environment there changes since you are still going into a sata port on the board itself even with a drive on the outside of the case. From drive to eSata port on a case or to a pci adapter out from there direct to the board. Simple formula!
I'm not familiar with 'eSata' or any of the 'newer' stuff, but the BIOS has to be able to boot from the eSata, to be useful.
Seems to me that this could work, IF W7 installs to eSata, and BIOS boots from it....
Have you tried this?

My Gateway is supposed to have a 'Sata' connector on the MB, but don't know about the BIOS supporting it. Seems it should.
And, don't have a Sata HDD.
Bought what was supposed to be one, but is 60 GB IDE, sitting in closet.

My goal is to (try) to put 100% Win7 (nothing else) on a USB HDD.
Plug the wire into chassis, change BIOS to boot from that USB HDD,
and have 7 boot, 'up and running', full-bore...

I'm not worried about 'No sw updates to USB' or anything like that ---
just full boot, and Run...
Like my XP_SP2 does...
No emulators, virtual stuff, or any of that.
Maybe later add: HS Internet access, etc.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
.

20 Aug 2009   #64
Night Hawk

W7 Ultimate x64/W10 Pro x64 dual boot main build-remote pc W10 Pro x64 Insider Preview/W7 Pro x64
 
 

The term "eSata" refers to the form of connection seen when a drive is outside of the main case and uses what you would simply call an extension cord to the sata port rather then the single cable you plug into the board for a drive installed internally.

It still uses the same controllers on the board unless the other pci card is more then a holder for ports where the second cable plugs into from the drive to the card and has it's own drive controller there.

If you are familiar with RAID or SCSI controller cards a sata version would be how that would work. The e in eSata simply means "external sata' for short.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
21 Aug 2009   #65
chuckr

XP_Pro, W7_7201, W7RC.vhd, SciLinux5.3, Fedora12, Fedora9_2x, OpenSolaris_09-06
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Night Hawk View Post
The term "eSata" refers to the form of connection seen when a drive is outside of the main case and uses what you would simply call an extension cord to the sata port...

The e in eSata simply means "external sata' for short.
Thank you!

Boy, that sure makes me feel dumb...
So, then the next question has to be:
If the drive is inside the chassis, is it then called 'iSata' or just 'Sata' ?

I would guess that the BIOS doesn't care where the wire goes to (outside or inside the chassis),
but just that there is/or is not a physical drive present.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
21 Aug 2009   #66
Night Hawk

W7 Ultimate x64/W10 Pro x64 dual boot main build-remote pc W10 Pro x64 Insider Preview/W7 Pro x64
 
 

The term eSata there applies to an externally connected drive while still going to port by way of the extension cable to port on the case or addon card used and then from there to a port on the board itself. That can also apply to a drive connected to a controller card while being outside the case while generally those will be used as a temp for connecting an old ide drive for data retrieval, an array(ide or sata), or simply when the case itself lacks room.

It will still be a sata drive with the external shortened down to the letter E. f you spend the extra when looking over various models by each brand you'll see that offer the eSata as well as the usb connection or as the alternate.

The highest priced will tend to see eSata and Firewire without the usb part. When running a laptop you're often stuck with the lower priced usb models there. The one thing found so far with the drives used is that the lower end models are usually what gets stuffed into the external enclosures however once you make comparisons between models by each brand.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
21 Aug 2009   #67
darkassain

Windows 7 Ult x64(x2), HomePrem x32(x4), Server 08 (+VM), 08 R2 (VM) , SuSe 11.2 (VM), XP 32 (VM)
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by ChuckR View Post
Thank you!

Boy, that sure makes me feel dumb...
So, then the next question has to be:
If the drive is inside the chassis, is it then called 'iSata' or just 'Sata' ?

I would guess that the BIOS doesn't care where the wire goes to (outside or inside the chassis),
but just that there is/or is not a physical drive present.
well it depends...
if you connect to a esata port then its esata
if its usb then you are make a usb-sata bridge
with firewire i do not know but it should still apply...
My System SpecsSystem Spec
21 Aug 2009   #68
Night Hawk

W7 Ultimate x64/W10 Pro x64 dual boot main build-remote pc W10 Pro x64 Insider Preview/W7 Pro x64
 
 

1394 would seem to be closer when applied to Firewire I would think. If you look over the specifications for a new case or those seen for an external HD those will always be separate names there as expected for distinguishing each.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
22 Aug 2009   #69
chuckr

XP_Pro, W7_7201, W7RC.vhd, SciLinux5.3, Fedora12, Fedora9_2x, OpenSolaris_09-06
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by darkassain View Post
well it depends...
if you connect to a esata port then its esata
if its usb then you are make a usb-sata bridge
with firewire i do not know but it should still apply...
Looks like there's a little more to it, than just internal/external wiring and enclosure-types.

More information, with a few extra details like sata NRZ encoding, etc.
can be found here:
Quote:
Prior to the final eSATA specification, a number of products existed designed for external connections of SATA drives. Some of these use the internal SATA connector or even connectors designed for other interface specifications, such as FireWire.
These products are not eSATA compliant.
Given its relative newness, each BIOS may have a different way of labeling it as a 'boot drive' option.

If its external, I doubt Win 7 would install there, because of the enclosure's interface...
My System SpecsSystem Spec
22 Aug 2009   #70
Night Hawk

W7 Ultimate x64/W10 Pro x64 dual boot main build-remote pc W10 Pro x64 Insider Preview/W7 Pro x64
 
 

If there is any usb involvement at all other then the use of a VM the Windows installer itself will simply stall with the instant message stating "Windows cannot be installed onto usb devices". The VM on the other hand creates a welcome environment for the installer there providing a vhd is present fooling the installer in a sense to make it believe it's a physical drive.

The sata port on the board out to the eSata port out to the drive from there is simply adding an extension cable in a sense to make the sata cable longer with the break seen along the way. You're still using the same bus unless adding a separate controller card on. You certainly can't mix usb or firewire with a direct input to one form of sata controller and see it work.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
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 Win7 installed to SDHC how?




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