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Windows 7: Real time to get Windows 7 functioning as XP install

17 Apr 2010   #41
whs
Microsoft MVP

Vista, Windows7, Mint Mate, Zorin, Windows 8
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by CarlTR6 View Post
Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by CommonTater View Post
Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Duke of Alinor View Post
thanks ZZZ and Carl,
Hopefully my time spent will be the most you ever see for an install.
And hopefully MS will get the hint to put a warning in Homegroups setup.
They could fix this Soooo easily and they could do it during install.

All they have to do is embed a trademark response in Win7... Enumerate the machines on the local network... if even one of them does not respond with the TMResponse, disable homegroups entirely.

This should not be user torture... it should be an automatic function of either installation or early setup.
It is certainly frustrating and torture to a network group neophyte!!
Even for a non-neophyte, LOL. I gave my wife the Win7 laptop so that we can share printers and shipped her Vista laptop to NY.


My System SpecsSystem Spec
.
17 Apr 2010   #42
CommonTater

XP Pro SP3 X86 / Win7 Pro X86
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by CarlTR6 View Post
Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by CommonTater View Post
Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Duke of Alinor View Post
thanks ZZZ and Carl,
Hopefully my time spent will be the most you ever see for an install.
And hopefully MS will get the hint to put a warning in Homegroups setup.
They could fix this Soooo easily and they could do it during install.

All they have to do is embed a trademark response in Win7... Enumerate the machines on the local network... if even one of them does not respond with the TMResponse, disable homegroups entirely.

This should not be user torture... it should be an automatic function of either installation or early setup.
It is certainly frustrating and torture to a network group neophyte!!
And look how many people posting here have exactly the same problem... Their networks keep acting up... The frustration in the air is tangeable, you can feel it just reading their appeals for help.

Lets not forget that most of the "regulars" here are techy types who know how to troubleshoot and find these problems... for them (us?) the problem is a challenge, for most people it's an insoluable mess of settings that make no sense whatsoever.

By way of contrast... I just finished installing XP on my better half's machine. Put it in, recreate her file shares, set the permissions, click on Network Places and there's the entire network up and running with no extra effort at all.

Clearly this is a problem Microsoft should be addressing... But from what little I know of SP1, it's not there... so maybe SP2???
My System SpecsSystem Spec
17 Apr 2010   #43
gregrocker

 

Tater, were you beta tester? It took me about six months to get a handle comfortably on those settings, and they were buggier then.

Reading your posts, I feel your pain but hope you keep your eye on the road ahead and only backtrack as necessary because Win7 in all of its functions is not that hard to master.

Just bring it here as needed. Many of us are hobbyists but have a real respect for the pros, and know your time is money.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
.

17 Apr 2010   #44
not so gray matter

W7 Ult. x64 | OS X
 
 

It takes me about 2-2.5 on a normal install. I think this has more to do with the fact that I have a crap ton of stuff to install rather than experience/etc.
Boot Camp 3.0 (Older Drivers, Some of which I keep, some I don't)
Boot Camp 3.1
All Drivers
All Programs
All Windows Tweaks

Instead of dealing with all of that, and it's alot of tweaking, etc... I just made a hard drive image of exactly where I am after I finish that stuff.
Now it takes a 1/2 to get back to where I was just after I installed everything I wanted and tweaked my computer to it's best state.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
17 Apr 2010   #45
gregrocker

 

Finally broke my XP/Vista habit of tweaking with Win7 and its much more reponsive with less FUBAR than before.

Win7 doesn't really need more than normal system settings variations.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
17 Apr 2010   #46
CommonTater

XP Pro SP3 X86 / Win7 Pro X86
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by notsograymatter View Post
It takes me about 2-2.5 on a normal install. I think this has more to do with the fact that I have a crap ton of stuff to install rather than experience/etc.
Boot Camp 3.0 (Older Drivers, Some of which I keep, some I don't)
Boot Camp 3.1
All Drivers
All Programs
All Windows Tweaks

Instead of dealing with all of that, and it's alot of tweaking, etc... I just made a hard drive image of exactly where I am after I finish that stuff.
Now it takes a 1/2 to get back to where I was just after I installed everything I wanted and tweaked my computer to it's best state.
Well... here's the thing... As I've explained before, I ran a single install of win2000 from 1999 all the way to 2006 when I put in XP and ran a single install of it all the way to last month when I decided to jump to Win7 ... The point is that you should not have to "get back to where I was".

A stable system should need no more than routine maintenance... Defrag once a week, Virus scans every few days, disk cleanup once a month... and aside from that it should just work ... 2000 was rock stable for me from day 1. Xp cost me a couple hours of settings flipping and then was rock stable for the better part of 5 years...

People who use these systems for more than gaming or internet access, have to trust that what they do today will be there for them tomorrow. Office clerks and even IT pros don't want to run around fixing this and that... they want to simply use the machines.

Hobby level activity is different. Fanbois and geeks love to tinker, it's the thrill of the chase, another 20 3DMarks. Tweaking and messing with the computer IS the hobby. But for someone in an office to have to stop and do that, even occasionally, cuts into their ability to do their jobs and it does cost companies a lot of money when it happens... If your game goes down, you loose half an hour restoring from an image... If your financial data base goes down, you lose your company!
My System SpecsSystem Spec
17 Apr 2010   #47
CommonTater

XP Pro SP3 X86 / Win7 Pro X86
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by gregrocker View Post
Tater, were you beta tester? It took me about six months to get a handle comfortably on those settings, and they were buggier then.

Reading your posts, I feel your pain but hope you keep your eye on the road ahead and only backtrack as necessary because Win7 in all of its functions is not that hard to master.

Just bring it here as needed. Many of us are hobbyists but have a real respect for the pros, and know your time is money.
Ummm... I've written nearly a thousand posts here, helping people where I can. It's what I do... I fix stuff. Granted I don't have long experience with Win7 which I'm sure might even be part of the problems I've experienced... but I'm a very quick study when the topic interests me. I don't settle for the obvious, I climb right in and understand it to the deepest level I can...

I'm not exactly an IT professional. I'm mostly retired. (pushing 60!) My primary career was in electronic service (not just computers) and these days I contract out to a couple of Home Theatre companies doing their HTPC setups for them to earn some extra cash... I also tinker with software and occasionally type up one of the grand kid's homework for them...

EDIT... wow talk about strange coincidences... turns out this was my thousandth post!
My System SpecsSystem Spec
17 Apr 2010   #48
zzz2496

Windows7 Ultimate 64bit
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by CommonTater View Post
Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by notsograymatter View Post
It takes me about 2-2.5 on a normal install. I think this has more to do with the fact that I have a crap ton of stuff to install rather than experience/etc.
Boot Camp 3.0 (Older Drivers, Some of which I keep, some I don't)
Boot Camp 3.1
All Drivers
All Programs
All Windows Tweaks

Instead of dealing with all of that, and it's alot of tweaking, etc... I just made a hard drive image of exactly where I am after I finish that stuff.
Now it takes a 1/2 to get back to where I was just after I installed everything I wanted and tweaked my computer to it's best state.
Well... here's the thing... As I've explained before, I ran a single install of win2000 from 1999 all the way to 2006 when I put in XP and ran a single install of it all the way to last month when I decided to jump to Win7 ... The point is that you should not have to "get back to where I was".

A stable system should need no more than routine maintenance... Defrag once a week, Virus scans every few days, disk cleanup once a month... and aside from that it should just work ... 2000 was rock stable for me from day 1. Xp cost me a couple hours of settings flipping and then was rock stable for the better part of 5 years...

People who use these systems for more than gaming or internet access, have to trust that what they do today will be there for them tomorrow. Office clerks and even IT pros don't want to run around fixing this and that... they want to simply use the machines.

Hobby level activity is different. Fanbois and geeks love to tinker, it's the thrill of the chase, another 20 3DMarks. Tweaking and messing with the computer IS the hobby. But for someone in an office to have to stop and do that, even occasionally, cuts into their ability to do their jobs and it does cost companies a lot of money when it happens... If your game goes down, you loose half an hour restoring from an image... If your financial data base goes down, you lose your company!
+1 Well said... I completely agree on that part . Though I am risking my production system to Windows 7 (as I said earlier, I this is my primary rig, the one I made my money from). For a hobbyist, a down time is just another maintenance, it's just another time wasted... In an office/corporate scheme, when a client/server went down, means lost of revenue, example: several computers on sales department suddenly lost connection to the application server and some sales agents can't generate invoices for their clients, that means lost of/reduced revenue, bad for business, bad for clients, bad for the company.

Until now I haven't seen those horrifying network glitches/bugs/problems. This computer is connected to several corporate networks, some through VPN, others I need to manually dial... So far so good, I never lost any connection to any of my client's server. Though I have to be honest with you, my clients and I are using Linux/AIX/Windows[2000/XP/Vista/7] mixed environment, I never ever see any glitch. For the computer browser (the pane that is filled with icons from clients of the network) never work properly for me since 2002, so I gave up on it since then. I most of the time access clients using either IP address, OR FQDN, both work VERY RELIABLY, not like "Computer Browser" service.

One of my clients was running Windows 2003 Small Business Edition server, running on an IBM X3500, hosting an Apache instance, 2 Database servers, and acting as a file server... The performance was not bad, but not good either, up time was around 1 month, had to restart because some of the service somehow lost in translation (and the service in question is running, I can access it through localhost connection). After several excruciating months, I decided to move that server to SuSE Linux installation, and it perform admirably. Up time is always above 8 months on average (every 8 months or so, I always do a hardware checkup, so the servers must go down). Either Windows nor Linux server, I never lost connection to neither of them with my current installation of Windows 7.

As for home/work profile in 7, it's just a profile Microsoft made for network connections, it has list of to dos when you select it, like firewall rules... I use "Home" networking profile for my corporate connection, and most of the time had to modify the firewall rules so that my services can work... So I don't see the problem over networking....

As for the rampant behavior of "Windows 7 taking over my files - that made me unable to access the files from 'X' OS", this is just a matter of understanding how 7 works. 7 in a sense is very "strict", if it want an access to an object, usually it adds it self to the the ACL of the said object, but in rare cases, it replaces the ACL with its own causing your problem. To solve that, usually you just add your current user of the 'X' OS to the ACL of the said object (can be a file/folder/whatever). Windows 7 rarely "bark" unless you took over the ownership of the said object causing 7 to not able to access... Here's an example: I have my XP's "home" folder copied to my Windows 7. Then for some reason, I need to access the real XP home folder (in XP installation). 7 said I can't access it, because it doesn't have sufficient permissions to access the said folder, it asked for permission to add the required permission to the folder, I clicked OK... I can access my XP's home folder on the XP installation through 7. I checked the "Security" tab, to make sure that it didn't took over/overwrite the security/ownership of my XP's original home folder, and it didn't... After that, I restarted, logged in to XP, everything was normal...

If you have issues of such nature, I'll gladly help... I personally never saw these problems you said, though all I do is use the "classic" implementation of Windows networking (access SMB/CIFS share as it is, and essentially must login every time I want to use a resource off other "servers"). I never ever even consider Homegroup. I know somehow someway it's a "tacked on" implementation, though I never bothered to learn what goes behind the scene, I think it's not time well spent... SMB/CIFS works, why bother Homegroups?

zzz2496
My System SpecsSystem Spec
17 Apr 2010   #49
CommonTater

XP Pro SP3 X86 / Win7 Pro X86
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by zzz2496 View Post
If you have issues of such nature, I'll gladly help... I personally never saw these problems you said, though all I do is use the "classic" implementation of Windows networking (access SMB/CIFS share as it is, and essentially must login every time I want to use a resource off other "servers"). I never ever even consider Homegroup. I know somehow someway it's a "tacked on" implementation, though I never bothered to learn what goes behind the scene, I think it's not time well spent... SMB/CIFS works, why bother Homegroups?

zzz2496
Well, these setups are nothing as sophisticated as yours. Mostly they're Workgroup setups, XP/2000 style and for the most part they're pretty stable. This is where Win7 really tossed a monkey wrench into the works. I learned on day 1 that I could not use Homegroup (MSHOME) networking... but I had no reasonable expectations of such bizarre permissions issues. Replacing ACLs sound just about like what it was doing.

When I got my NAS back up the whole thing was set to read only... now what I don't get is how does Win7 change ACLs on a third party machine that's running a variant of embedded linux? Or, perhaps that was the NAS erroring off and reverting that way to prevent data corruption... I still don't know for sure. But as soon as I redid the shares on it, including the family's private shares, everything was fine again.

It's truly bizarre behavior, unlike anything I've seen before...
My System SpecsSystem Spec
17 Apr 2010   #50
zzz2496

Windows7 Ultimate 64bit
 
 

Usually in a NAS situation (well, most of them are running either Linux or some type of UNIX), the underlying file system is usually native to that OS, say a Linux NAS will use Ext 3 or Ext 4, on a Unix (most of them are BSD) will use UFS. ACL implementation under those OSes are through extended meta data capability of the native OS. Basically they are mimicking NTFS behavior using native file system and expose those behaviors through SAMBA. If your files' ACL got changed, it's not corruption(s), it's Windows doing something...

zzz2496
My System SpecsSystem Spec
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 Real time to get Windows 7 functioning as XP install




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