Do I need an Ethernet hub, switch, or even a router to have my...?

montecarlo1987 · 12 Sep 2013

Question:

Hello. Do I need an Ethernet hub, switch, or even a router to have my Ethernet VOIP telephony box to be hardwired "separately" from my cable modem and NOT be part of my hardwired wireless router's ports???

My Objective/My Plan:

This is for home/residential networking. To have two (2) hardwired networking hardware items: 1. (1) VOIP box... ...and... 2. (1) wireless integrated router BOTH hardwired off of the same cable modem of my cable ISP. I need either a hub, a switch, or even a router to connect both networking hardware items to the cable modem. Also, I MUST BE ABLE to connect to the Internet at the same time for both the VOIP box and the wireless integrated router (the Internet) if necessary. My current wireless integrated router will serve as my wired/wireless networking device for a desktop computer, a laptop, an Internet streaming radio, and a Wi-Fi Smartphone; but the wireless router *WILL NOT* serve my VOIP telephony service. Why? See: "Reason".

For your information, the VOIP box offers an incoming Internet connectivity, an outgoing traditional telephone jack, and a power port for a power adapter. No Internet bypass Ethernet port on the VOIP box.

Also, be aware that my cable ISP company is NOT the same as my VOIP company. This does not make much different on the networking hardware setup. The cable modem itself has ONLY one (1) Ethernet connection too.

[*NOTE: I have learned that a two-way Ethernet "splitter" allows two (2) computers or other networking devices to share one Ethernet line, but it doesn't support both networking hardware to connect onto the Internet simultaneously or at the same time. Therefore I cannot use an Ethernet splitter since there will be MANY times I am online AND on the phone AT THE SAME TIME. I can only consider an Ethernet connectivity options like "hub", "switch", or "router". Yes, the splitter is the cheapest idea, but not an option!]

Reason:

Why my VOIP box MUST BE INDEPENDENT or SEPARATELY hardwired from my cable modem and not hardwired to my current wireless router? I NEED to separate the VOIP box from the router that serves the rest of the networking setup hardware I have. Why? I'm prone to many electrical storms where I live, it would be best to unplug a power strip plug for ALL my networking hardware and a commonly shared Ethernet port/cable connection between the modem and the wireless router serving my networking hardware for safety and protection from damage from an oncoming electrical storm. Also, when I am out of town where I STILL NEED my household phone service STILL ACTIVE; this setup would STILL KEEP my phone service active while I am gone and still the rest of my network hardware would literally never receive any damage from electrical storms. Unequivocally, I have learned unplugging everything IS ALWAYS THE BEST option; undoubtedly better than surge protectors. Yes, the risk is relatively "small" of damage with connected surge protectors for electrical power and even lower for incoming data transmission damage; but again, totally unplugging the MOST POSSIBLE networking hardware is THE BEST BET!

Another Potential Router:

Okay, I bring up a "router" (actually an "integrated" router) in my question as a possible option for connectivity between the cable modem and the VOIP box/my current wireless router to serve as a hub or switch. I would also have to use another one of this potential router's Ethernet's outgoing wired ports to connect to my current router's Internet incoming port of course. The new possible router would connect inline between my cable modem and my VOIP box/current router, where then my current router that would be connected to all my networking hardware. You may consider another router as overkill here for the sole purpose to serve as a hub or switch for my VOIP box, but I am also not aware that I may have networking issues with another router when I ALREADY HAVE a router as part of my home networking hardware? I have been finding the cost of an Ethernet switch is about the same as a fully integrated cheaper home router that has the typical 4 wired ports. I am thinking of getting a cheaper "sacrificial" (for electrical storms) router, such as the Netgear N150 (WNR1000) router or the Belkin N150 (F9K1001). Yes, I am ONLY USING IT for the WIRED purposes, the Ethernet wired ports connection only for VOIP and Internet. Is having a router as an option to serve as a hub or switch not necessary and overkill or not really? Is having two (2) routers inline a serious cause of networking issues? Can this possible router be "tamed" in such a way as not causing networking issues?

Questions to answer please:

1. What do you think I need? Do I need an Ethernet hub, switch, or even a router to have my Ethernet VOIP telephony box to be hardwired "separately" from my cable modem and NOT be part of my hardwired wireless router's ports?

2. Will an Ethernet hub or switch support more than one networking hardware to connect onto the Internet simultaneously or at the same time or not? (I am not familiar with Ethernet hubs' and switches' properties.)

3. Another router a "fair" idea or do you not agree at all for an integrated router to serve as a hub or switch? Will I have networking issues if I incorporate another router into this setup? Can it be "tamed" to not cause issues?

4. Do you have any suggestions, different ideas, or thoughts here?

Thank you!

Shadowjk · 13 Sep 2013

montecarlo1987 said:

Questions to answer please:

1. What do you think I need? Do I need an Ethernet hub, switch, or even a router to have my Ethernet VOIP telephony box to be hardwired "separately" from my cable modem and NOT be part of my hardwired wireless router's ports?

2. Will an Ethernet hub or switch support more than one networking hardware to connect onto the Internet simultaneously or at the same time or not? (I am not familiar with Ethernet hubs' and switches' properties.)

3. Another router a "fair" idea or do you not agree at all for an integrated router to serve as a hub or switch? Will I have networking issues if I incorporate another router into this setup? Can it be "tamed" to not cause issues?

4. Do you have any suggestions, different ideas, or thoughts here?

Thank you!

1. You could complete this in two different ways however it is dependent on what the current router is for your main internet connection to client computers. One way is to connect a separate router to one of your main routers LAN ports. for example connecting the internet port to the LAN port. Then all you need to do is add the VoIP clients to the added router and it will be completely separate from your computers due to a technology called NAT.

Second option which could be cheaper is to get a managed switch (NEVER GET A HUB THEY EQUAL NETWORK DEATH) and then setup something known as VLANs. This will essentially split your switch into two different switches allowing you to connect both VoIP clients and computers into the same switch without them being able to ever talk to each other. To enable connectivity to the internet you would have to connect the main router to port in each separate VLAN so that there is two ports into the same switch however one side can talk to the VoIP clients and the other servicing the computers. Depending on your main router you may not be able to do this however if you can this could be a more cost efficient option.

2.Yes it can but by default everything connected to one switch can talk to each other therefore to segment your network you will have to do something like VLANs as stated above or use a separate router.

3.In fact a router is the most logical idea. Allowing your VoIP clients to communicate with each other and to the internet but preventing the computers to connect to the VoIP clients. The perfect solution eh?

4.In order for a better solution from me at all I would need to know the make/model of the main router and possibly a network diagram if at all possible. My apologies if it has already been mentioned above.

Hope This Helps,
Josh :)

westom · 13 Sep 2013

Sacrificial is a myth. If a destructive current is incoming to the router, then the same current, at the same time, is also outgoing to attached electronics. Nothing stops a surge - especially not sacrificial devices. First that current is everywhere in a path from cloud to distant earthborne chargers. Much later some item or items in that path fail.

Your VOIP provider and cable company do not disconnect anything during a surge. Must suffer many surges during each storm. And remain functional - no damage. Learn what they use since that solution at your venue also costs less money than many 'hyped by advertising' solutions ... that are also useless because they are destroyed.

Solve the problem. Direct lightning strikes without damage is routine when that current is earthed BEFORE it enters the building.

montecarlo1987 · 13 Sep 2013

@ Josh & anyone too:

Hello (again). Josh, I think we may of spoken before on this forum at some point; if not, nice to meet you!

Okay, thank you for your help and critical analysis. This is what I am looking for!

I will get right to the point. I see you provide me 2 options or methods here -- router and a managed Ethernet switch. Obviously each option requires a setup process to get my desired results. I will say price is factor, but I have seen online anymore that Ethernet switches and wired or wireless routers (low end - that is all I really need because I am using it basically for its wired portion of it) are very close in cost anymore. You think that a router is the best idea in your response number3 above. I am thinking of going this way. I have to ask you some more questions since I see you are aware of what needs to be done with the setup process. I am "assuming" I will need to make two separate networks that cannot see each other for both routers (the "good" non-sacrificial router and the "cheaper" sacrificial router)?

I. Routers I have and I will get you asked me in your last response:

A. The "good" (non-sacrificial) router I currently have that is used for wired/wireless for my networking hardware: a new Medialink High Speed Wireless-N Broadband Router w/ Internal Antenna – 300 Mbps - 2.4GHz - 802.11 b/g/n (MWN-WAPR300N)

B. The "cheaper" (sacrificial) router I will need to get that is used only for its wired ports and between the cable modem and the VOIP box/the "good" router (letter A. directly above): either buy the Netgear N150 (WNR1000) router or the Belkin N150 (F9K1001)

II. Setup hardware design you asked me in your last response connected by Ethernet cables (<->)

(NOTE: I would be using 2 of its wired ports on the cheaper/sacrificial router. One of the VOIP box and the other for the good/non-sacrificial router):

cable modem <-> router (cheaper/sacrificial: Netgear N150 or Belkin N150)
- <-> VOIP box
- <-> router (good/non-sacrificial: Medialink N300) <-> wired/wireless network device(s) connected to the good/non-sacrificial router

NOTE: I will disconnect the Ethernet cable when a electrical storm is approaching or gone away from town between the router (cheaper/sacrificial: Netgear N150 or Belkin N150) and the router (good/non-sacrificial: Medialink N300). I will always leave the VOIP box Ethernet cable connected because it always has to be between the router (cheaper/sacrificial: Netgear N150 or Belkin N150) and the VOIP box.

Questions:

1. With the router option, what do I need to do in order to have it setup properly. With a cable modem <-> router (cheaper/sacrificial) <-> router (good/non-sacrificial) <-> wired/wireless network device(s) MUST present issues here? Two routers inline with each other MUST have issues and I would need to have "separate" networks so each router cannot see the other? I would assume need them to be "separate" networks to avoid network/router confusion, correct? How would I setup one or even both routers in this setup -- both hardware and software setup based??? Do you have the steps to achieve this??? Please explain in detail as this is all new to me. I am sure I am achieve it if given detailed steps.

2. If I were to later decide to go (for whatever reason) and use a managed switch instead of a cheaper/sacrificial router, this would be the design (ONLY replacing the cheaper/sacrificial router with a sacrificial managed switch):

cable modem <-> managed switch (sacrificial)
- <-> VOIP box
- <-> router (good/non-sacrificial: Medialink N300) <-> wired/wireless network device(s) connected to the good/non-sacrificial router

NOTE: Likewise, I will disconnect the Ethernet cable when a electrical storm is approaching or gone away from town between the sacrificial managed switch and the router (good/non-sacrificial: Medialink N300). I will always leave the VOIP box Ethernet cable connected because it always has to be between the sacrificial managed switch and the VOIP box.

Do you have any information on how I would setup that scheme too? You mention VLANs. What
networking hardware is effected (that needs to be programmed in such a way to make it work properly) in my scenario for VLANs -- just the managed switch or also the good/non-sacrificial router and VOIP box be effected here? Again, do you have the steps to achieve this in detail too? I would be new to this as well.

Please answer all my questions.

Please reply.

Thank you!

Shadowjk · 13 Sep 2013

For the router configuration you would set it up into something like this:

Do I need an Ethernet hub, switch, or even a router to have my...?-scan0001.jpg

Yes you would need a separate IP addressing scheme between each router. Essentially all you would do is plug a cable from the internet port of one router into a LAN port of the other. Once done all you would need to do is setup some DNS servers and change the DHCP scope. I cannot currently offer exact details on how to however if you were to provide an exact router make/model either the belkin or netgear one then I can hopefully find a manual for you to follow

. NAT will be enabled so that the two sets of devices cannot communicate with each other.

As for the switched VLAN idea, the setting up of VLANs is switch dependent and again I would need an appropriate switch model/make to suggest steps. Essentially you create two different VLANs and then assign which ports on the switch are assigned to which VLAN. You would still need a separate IP address scheme. My issue is that your current router doesn't support the ability to router between them since it only has switchports on it therefore it may be best to follow the option above rather than purchasing a new main router.

Josh

montecarlo1987 · 13 Sep 2013

@ Josh & anyone too:
Again, thanks Josh for your help!
I have added to this post a hand drawn diagram here to even get a better idea of what I mean. I am sure, even now you know what I am talking about in terms of hardware setup. From my hand drawn diagram, I would rather go for the "1. Scheme Simplified For Connection". Forget about "2. Scheme Simplified For Hardware". Number 2 is more of a pain because of the cable connections.
Okay, I will keep away from the managed Ethernet switch all together as you have mentioned that my current router in particular will have issues with this hardware setup.
Okay, now...
...in your response...
"Once done all you would need to do is setup some DNS servers and change the DHCP scope. I cannot currently offer exact details on how to however if you were to provide an exact router make/model either the belkin or netgear one then I can hopefully find a manual for you to follow. NAT will be enabled so that the two sets of devices cannot communicate with each other."
My Answer -- NOTE: These are USA models which doesn't make much difference:
1. For the Netgear N150 router here is the website: WNR1000
2. For the Belkin N150 router here is the website: N150 Wireless Router | Routers | Wireless | Networking | Products | Belkin USA Site
I have give you the URLS from the company's homepage of each prospective router I am interested in. I will make a decision very soon on which one I will buy. I have got my homework in that area yet to determine the better one.
Again, I am sure this basic router will more than suffice for my wired requirements here. I just have absolutely NO idea on how to program it so it acts or networks separately or independently from my current Medialink router??? Will have to modify or also program my Medialink router as well in some capacity too? The companies websites for the Medialink router are: Medialink - Wireless N Router - 802.11n - 300 Mbps - 2.4 Ghz ...and... MediaLink
Please help me here and provide me the steps (like you said, "setup some DNS servers and change the DHCP scope"). This is my downfall.
Please reply.
Thank you very much!

Shadowjk · 13 Sep 2013

For the network scheme 1 that you have drawn you would have to swap the hardwired devices to the R1 and have the VoIP box connected to R2. Otherwise you will have to do some access list setup which can be complex.

Since you would not have many ports on R1 with the extra router connected you may have to get an unmanaged switch and connect it to the router. Unmanaged switches are very cheap and all they do is expand the amount of LAN ports you can have.

Please understand that you must have a router and cannot have a switch connected to a modem.

I will look into the second router alternatives you have stated and look to see if the setup can be supported...

Josh :)

Shadowjk · 13 Sep 2013

Just checked your routers manuals and there doesn't appear to be any detailed steps at all

I could still offer help on how to set this up however please understand that this will require some exploring of the settings on your part, since detailed steps are not available. I can offer steps on how to access the routers configuration. I will try and see if there are any possible other manuals of routers that run similar firmware that you can follow.

Josh

montecarlo1987 · 13 Sep 2013

@ Josh:
Okay, so you are saying that my scheme number 1 is not completely correct and not doable, now that you see what I mean visually?
So,
1. You said I would need to use a router and I cannot use a switch off of a modem. I did not know that, but now I do. I did have in my diagram as either using a switch or router; but as you have told me, I have no option and to use ONLY a router off a modem. So a Ethernet switch cannot be directly connected to a modem? Please explain.
2. You said I ultimately have to completely swap the hardware connections between routers (R1 and R2). Network hardware hardwired to LAN ports on R1 and the VOIP box to R2. Is there a way to have BOTH the VOIP box and the network hardware hardwired to the SAME router or not? I am curious? Please explain that one.
3. I will need to get an unmanaged Ethernet switch too? ...and add it to my R1 router because I will be lacking hardwired ports in R1?
Please reply.
Thanks!

montecarlo1987 · 13 Sep 2013

@ Josh:

You said previously, "I can offer steps on how to access the routers configuration. I will try and see if there are any possible other manuals of routers that run similar firmware that you can follow."

Please do. I would appreciate that. I need to learn.

Thank you!