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Windows 7: New Bill Would Require U.S. ISPs to Block Pirate Sites

30 Sep 2010   #161
Catswold

Windows 7
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by geekfreak View Post
Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Layback Bear View Post
Under General Welfare covers everybody and corporation.
More Government more control is also worry some to me but I don't know how else it can be done. If some one has a better way of stopping these thieves from using the internet to steal let us all know. Its the Federal Governments duty to protect our borders; which could very easily mean crossing our borders with the internets illegal products.
I'm not reaching any more than lawyers do in front of courts all the time. The abortion debate was used under the Commerce Clause 10 amendment. Many things have been done that way for over a 100 years. What the heck the Commerce Clause has to do with that subject I'm not sure.
We are saying the same thing. There has got to be laws on the books that can stop these thieves without creating new laws. That's what I am trying to show with all those examples. New laws not needed, new directions with the laws we already have.
no it does not. those laws were put in place to protect the people, and only the people.
Now I have to take issue with you on that statement. Corporations are treated like people under the Constitution. Corporations are nothing but legal agreements between individuals and as such enjoy the same protections that the individual enjoys.


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30 Sep 2010   #162
bobtran

Windows 7 Ultimate x64
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Catswold View Post
Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by geekfreak View Post
Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Layback Bear View Post
Under General Welfare covers everybody and corporation.
More Government more control is also worry some to me but I don't know how else it can be done. If some one has a better way of stopping these thieves from using the internet to steal let us all know. Its the Federal Governments duty to protect our borders; which could very easily mean crossing our borders with the internets illegal products.
I'm not reaching any more than lawyers do in front of courts all the time. The abortion debate was used under the Commerce Clause 10 amendment. Many things have been done that way for over a 100 years. What the heck the Commerce Clause has to do with that subject I'm not sure.
We are saying the same thing. There has got to be laws on the books that can stop these thieves without creating new laws. That's what I am trying to show with all those examples. New laws not needed, new directions with the laws we already have.
no it does not. those laws were put in place to protect the people, and only the people.
Now I have to take issue with you on that statement. Corporations are treated like people under the Constitution. Corporations are nothing but legal agreements between individuals and as such enjoy the same protections that the individual enjoys.
But pay far LESS in taxes....If corps want the privileges then they should pay taxes like any other individual and accept the responsibilities that go with being an individual including legal liability instead of Corp. immunity.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
30 Sep 2010   #163
Layback Bear

Windows 10 Pro. 64/ version 1709
 
 

Corporations consist of people, management, employees, share holders. Corporations that own copyrights also have rights. Because that copyright is owned by a corporation does not give anybody a right to steal it. Microsoft is a corporation and no you don't have a right to steal Windows 7 just because a corporation owns the patent and I have no problem with gathering things off the internet as long as it is legal. When you steal from a corporation you are stealing from the people withing that corporation also. Its called commission checks, bonus, benifits and pay raises that come from profits. There is no profit from products stolen from a corporation. I say again, If some one knows a way of stopping this stealing without using the government please tell us all. If you don't care weather the stealing continues or not tell us that also.
Thank you Catswold. You made me feel good. You are the only person besides me that has read the Federalist papers that I know of. It took my library four weeks to get a copy for me to check out. Thanks again for that good feeling.
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30 Sep 2010   #164
Layback Bear

Windows 10 Pro. 64/ version 1709
 
 

Everybody should pay less taxes. Raise the taxes on a corporation or small business only raises the price of there products and services that we all buy. What else happens is layoffs as we see right now. The government gets the money and I think it falls into a black hole. A person sitting in front a computer does not have the right to steal from anybody or corporation.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
30 Sep 2010   #165
Catswold

Windows 7
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by bobtran View Post
Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Catswold View Post
Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by geekfreak View Post

no it does not. those laws were put in place to protect the people, and only the people.
Now I have to take issue with you on that statement. Corporations are treated like people under the Constitution. Corporations are nothing but legal agreements between individuals and as such enjoy the same protections that the individual enjoys.
But pay far LESS in taxes....If corps want the privileges then they should pay taxes like any other individual and accept the responsibilities that go with being an individual including legal liability instead of Corp. immunity.
Corporations cannot pay taxes, only their customers pay taxes. That's one thing people need to understand. You can't force corporations to pay taxes, precisely because they are legal agreements. Any taxes placed on a corporation invariably get added to the cost of doing business and are automatically passed on to the consumer as an additional tax.

Charge Exxon or BP a "corporate tax," the unit price of gasoline rises commensurately to cover that tax. Any "corporate tax" is a tax on the people. Raise taxes on corporations, you automatically raise taxes on everyone who uses their product.

Obama promised not to raise taxes on those earning under $250,000/year, but by raising corporate taxes, he automatically violates that pledge.

I have repeated what I said in a couple of ways, because this is a fundamental fact that needs to be understood by everyone. Corporations don't pay taxes, only customers pay taxes.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
30 Sep 2010   #166
Catswold

Windows 7
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Layback Bear View Post
Thank you Catswold. You made me feel good. You are the only person besides me that has read the Federalist papers that I know of. It took my library four weeks to get a copy for me to check out. Thanks again for that good feeling.


You have hit upon one of the most distressing fact about American society. We, the American people know almost nothing of our founding documents and their true intent and meaning.

My copy of the Federalist Papers is copyrighted 1961 and it was my parents before I "stole" it in the early 80's. I believe it is third after the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution as the most important publications necessary for understanding our rights and liberties and what our Founding Fathers intended in creating our Constitution and our nation.
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30 Sep 2010   #167
BCXtreme

Windows 7 Home Premium x64
 
 

"Contraband" refers to an item that is inherently illegal to possess. If you steal three candy bars, those candy bars are then stolen goods, but they are not contraband.

"General welfare" does not mean that the gov't can do whatever they please as long as it's perceived as beneficial to the people. The government is supposed to ensure that conditions in the United States are generally favorable toward the people.

The Constitution does protect corporations because, as others have said, corporations are comprised of people (despite how they are often portrayed). And yes, it is the government's duty to safeguard the intellectual property of corporations. However, the way to accomplish this is NOT by passing a bill that allows the government to censor anything they wish simply by classifying it under a certain title.

You want a better option? I'll give you one. Crack down on the people who are actually pirating. Just as the police might put surveillance on a street where there is suspected illegal activity, have the government watch connections to sites that are known to deal in piracy. If they see enough data going to a given IP address ("enough" being greater than the amount an accidental click on a Google link would trigger), track the IP address and send the person a warning from the FBI. If activity continues, prosecute. That way you are fighting piracy without taking away the freedoms of law-abiding citizens, and without increasing the government's authority.
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30 Sep 2010   #168
Catswold

Windows 7
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by BCXtreme View Post
"Contraband" refers to an item that is inherently illegal to possess. If you steal three candy bars, those candy bars are then stolen goods, but they are not contraband.

"General welfare" does not mean that the gov't can do whatever they please as long as it's perceived as beneficial to the people. The government is supposed to ensure that conditions in the United States are generally favorable toward the people.

The Constitution does protect corporations because, as others have said, corporations are comprised of people (despite how they are often portrayed). And yes, it is the government's duty to safeguard the intellectual property of corporations. However, the way to accomplish this is NOT by passing a bill that allows the government to censor anything they wish simply by classifying it under a certain title.

You want a better option? I'll give you one. Crack down on the people who are actually pirating. Just as the police might put surveillance on a street where there is suspected illegal activity, have the government watch connections to sites that are known to deal in piracy. If they see enough data going to a given IP address ("enough" being greater than the amount an accidental click on a Google link would trigger), track the IP address and send the person a warning from the FBI. If activity continues, prosecute. That way you are fighting piracy without taking away the freedoms of law-abiding citizens, and without increasing the government's authority.
ONly problem is, I don't want a government that "watches connections."

I suppose it is arguable no different from a wiretap, so as long as those "watchers" have a warrant for their traffic watching, it would be okay, but freedom is what has made the internet the great equalizer in the availability and free flow of information and ideas. It is a very slippery slope when we begin talking about granting any government entity the authority to do so. Safeguards should be plentiful and rigorously enforced.

Any trespass on that free flow needs to be carefull watched and controlled. Big Brother is not some impossible fantasy, it is an increasingly achievable possibility and there are many within our government that would relish such power.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
30 Sep 2010   #169
BCXtreme

Windows 7 Home Premium x64
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Catswold View Post
Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by BCXtreme View Post
"Contraband" refers to an item that is inherently illegal to possess. If you steal three candy bars, those candy bars are then stolen goods, but they are not contraband.

"General welfare" does not mean that the gov't can do whatever they please as long as it's perceived as beneficial to the people. The government is supposed to ensure that conditions in the United States are generally favorable toward the people.

The Constitution does protect corporations because, as others have said, corporations are comprised of people (despite how they are often portrayed). And yes, it is the government's duty to safeguard the intellectual property of corporations. However, the way to accomplish this is NOT by passing a bill that allows the government to censor anything they wish simply by classifying it under a certain title.

You want a better option? I'll give you one. Crack down on the people who are actually pirating. Just as the police might put surveillance on a street where there is suspected illegal activity, have the government watch connections to sites that are known to deal in piracy. If they see enough data going to a given IP address ("enough" being greater than the amount an accidental click on a Google link would trigger), track the IP address and send the person a warning from the FBI. If activity continues, prosecute. That way you are fighting piracy without taking away the freedoms of law-abiding citizens, and without increasing the government's authority.
ONly problem is, I don't want a government that "watches connections."

I suppose it is arguable no different from a wiretap, so as long as those "watchers" have a warrant for their traffic watching, it would be okay, but freedom is what has made the internet the great equalizer in the availability and free flow of information and ideas. It is a very slippery slope when we begin talking about granting any government entity the authority to do so. Safeguards should be plentiful and rigorously enforced.

Any trespass on that free flow needs to be carefull watched and controlled. Big Brother is not some impossible fantasy, it is an increasingly achievable possibility and there are many within our government that would relish such power.
I agree with your concerns, but the connection watching would be based on the particular website. For example, ONLY traffic coming and going to that specific site could be monitored. They would monitor the domain of a particular site to catch the IPs of people that visit it. I believe the FBI already has this capability, they just aren't using it to this end. I wouldn't even let them follow suspicious IPs to other sites.

Like I said, it's really no different than putting a given street or area of a city under surveillance due to suspected illegal activity. Ordinary citizens that are unaware of the situation (someone clicks a link on Google without realizing what it is actually is, then backs out when they see they've come to a pirate site) can pass through the area without even encountering the police. However, if someone comes to the area, lingers, and engages in suspicious activity, the police get that person's identity and essentially "tag" them as a suspect.

It could even be set up so that a court warrant would need to be obtained to "watch" any given site. That way the FBI or whoever wouldn't be able to just watch any site they please without cause.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
30 Sep 2010   #170
bobtran

Windows 7 Ultimate x64
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Catswold View Post
Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by bobtran View Post
Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Catswold View Post
Now I have to take issue with you on that statement. Corporations are treated like people under the Constitution. Corporations are nothing but legal agreements between individuals and as such enjoy the same protections that the individual enjoys.
But pay far LESS in taxes....If corps want the privileges then they should pay taxes like any other individual and accept the responsibilities that go with being an individual including legal liability instead of Corp. immunity.
Corporations cannot pay taxes, only their customers pay taxes. That's one thing people need to understand. You can't force corporations to pay taxes, precisely because they are legal agreements. Any taxes placed on a corporation invariably get added to the cost of doing business and are automatically passed on to the consumer as an additional tax.

Charge Exxon or BP a "corporate tax," the unit price of gasoline rises commensurately to cover that tax. Any "corporate tax" is a tax on the people. Raise taxes on corporations, you automatically raise taxes on everyone who uses their product.

Obama promised not to raise taxes on those earning under $250,000/year, but by raising corporate taxes, he automatically violates that pledge.

I have repeated what I said in a couple of ways, because this is a fundamental fact that needs to be understood by everyone. Corporations don't pay taxes, only customers pay taxes.
You are correct which is why no corporation should ever be granted personhood under the law (and no I am not arguing both sides of issue, I am stating my opinion related to the granting of privileges without the responsibilities inherent in the concept of personhood).
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 New Bill Would Require U.S. ISPs to Block Pirate Sites




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