Change to 'Bios' will make for PCs that boot in seconds

Colonel Travis said:

madtownidiot said:

In other words once this happens, people who only have one computer will be no longer be able to reinstall an operating system on their own if they don't have a cloned HDD, in the case of total HDD failure.

Not true.

Really? Do you really trust OEM manufacturers to make it easy to restore an EFI partition when they could ensure more profits by only providing the EFI images to their own certified service techs, which is exactly what Apple does? If you own a Mac and lose the system recovery disk, you're screwed if you want to try to do it yourself.

madtownidiot, I have been reading about UEFI for years and have never read anything anywhere about that says future PC owners will have to do what you think may happen. With Macs, you're inconvenienced if you lose the recovery disks but you are not screwed. You can buy replacements from Apple for $30-$40 and reload yourself.

Colonel Travis said:

madtownidiot, I have been reading about UEFI for years and have never read anything anywhere about that says future PC owners will have to do what you think may happen. With Macs, you're inconvenienced if you lose the recovery disks but you are not screwed. You can buy replacements from Apple for $30-$40 and reload yourself.

EFI can easily be set up to only function with its original hardware, using a manufacturer specified operating system, and even to limit which applications can be installed. Try completely removing OS-X from a relatively new Macbook and installing Ubuntu or any version of Windows in its place.. and when you see what happens, then come back and try to tell me you don't think other manufacturers wouldn't follow suit.

madtownidiot said:

Colonel Travis said:

madtownidiot, I have been reading about UEFI for years and have never read anything anywhere about that says future PC owners will have to do what you think may happen. With Macs, you're inconvenienced if you lose the recovery disks but you are not screwed. You can buy replacements from Apple for $30-$40 and reload yourself.

EFI can easily be set up to only function with its original hardware, using a manufacturer specified operating system, and even to limit which applications can be installed. Try completely removing OS-X from a relatively new Macbook and installing Ubuntu or any version of Windows in its place.. and when you see what happens, then come back and try to tell me you don't think other manufacturers wouldn't follow suit.

At least in theory, couldn't you alter that since it resides on disk (if I'm understanding this correctly)? Or is it encrypted somehow?

I'm sure someone with skills far beyond my abilities could hack an EFI.. that's what "jailbreaking" an iPhone consists of.

madtownidiot said:

Try completely removing OS-X from a relatively new Macbook and installing Ubuntu or any version of Windows in its place.. and when you see what happens, then come back and try to tell me you don't think other manufacturers wouldn't follow suit.

1.) If you're gonna use Windows on a Macbook, why are you buying a Macbook?
1a.) Let's say you like throwing money away. Removing Mac OSX and replacing with 7 ain't that hard. Can run into problems? Of course. Why? Because the difference between Macs and PCs goes beyond an EFI partition. The keyboard is not a 100% match, firmware updates are a hassle or impossible, power won't be optimized, etc. An Apple is not a PC for all sorts of reasons.
2.) You can replace/upgrade/reinstall a Macbook hard drive with no hassles. You can install Mac OSX via USB.

I don't understand your fear of this UEFI transition?

madtownidiot said:

Colonel Travis said:

madtownidiot, I have been reading about UEFI for years and have never read anything anywhere about that says future PC owners will have to do what you think may happen. With Macs, you're inconvenienced if you lose the recovery disks but you are not screwed. You can buy replacements from Apple for $30-$40 and reload yourself.

EFI can easily be set up to only function with its original hardware, using a manufacturer specified operating system, and even to limit which applications can be installed. Try completely removing OS-X from a relatively new Macbook and installing Ubuntu or any version of Windows in its place.. and when you see what happens, then come back and try to tell me you don't think other manufacturers wouldn't follow suit.

Pfah! STuff and nonsense.

It would be self defeating for a hardware company to do what you suggest. The reason 95% of the world is using Windows and not OSX is because of the open architecture concept.

Any manufacturer that placed that sort of limitation on their customers would shortly go out of business or become a small time player with a very limited, non-tech saavy, consumer base.

The smarter manufacturers would maintain user upgradability.

Besides that, aftermarket manufacturers would quickly devise a work around for those who bought a "Joe's Computer Company" box that had that sort of UEFI limitation.

You're right, money is the key, but the company that will make the most money is the one that sells the open architecture.

Aside from all of that, a great many people and I dare say most here roll their own. How would a manufacturer build a limitation into a computer that some hacker like me builds?

I think you are imagining barriers that won't exist.

madtownidiot said:

Unless I'm sorely misinformed, EFI is a HDD partition. In my experience with MACs, which have been using EFI and the GUID partition table for years, UEFI makes it much more difficult to replace a HDD, as the EFI image for the target system has to written the the HDD prior to installation. When the EFI partition is lost or corrupted, the entire system is rendered unusable. In other words once this happens, people who only have one computer will be no longer be able to reinstall an operating system on their own if they don't have a cloned HDD, in the case of total HDD failure. On the other hand, it does make for a more efficient boot time, and a much more visually appealing BIOS menu.

Hmmm, if you are not misinformated, then probably I am completely lost.

Dell is using UEFI since quite some time in their Optiplex desktop family (saw on the Opti 760 and newer). I can remove the SATA disk and I still can use the machine via PXE, if set. All "BIOS" settings preserved.

This "EFI" HDD partition is a volume from GUID partition scheme, not directly related to the UEFI/"BIOS". This space is usually reserved for some very particular settings of the OS to the target machine. That partition scheme first appeared on the Itanum days -- a platform which used and abused of EFI "Bioses".

Now, an Apple machine is no different from our regular PCs. They just use the bleeding edge of the technology, and very hand-picked hardware. They are as much PC as mine and yours are, maybe with a bit of high-tech here and there, but in the end, they share the same Intel processor, same Intel chipset (or NVidia, or ATi), and the same UEFI as found on Asus P6T or a couple Intel motherboards! And guess what? They all boot with or without a hard disk attached.

Back on the EFI partition, if it became corrupted, you still have ways of fix it, however not anymore using the old "fdisk /mbr" method, as we are not talking MBR anymore, but GUID partitions instead. And all of your data is still preserved, just like on the MBR! How handy!

In the end, UEFI is coming mainly to ensure the new multi-Terabyte disks can be used on our daily computers. Our old pal BIOS is throwing the towel after 2.5Tb single partitions. And, let's be honest, everything evoluted on our computers. All but the BIOS. It's more than about time to let it rest from its glory days.

Some restroom read, if you wish: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFI