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Windows 7: Microsoft Keeps Beating a Dead Browser

06 Jul 2009   #51
BCXtreme

Windows 7 Home Premium x64
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Muad Dib View Post
There would still be a segment of users that would hate it because it is MS's Internet Explorer!
Yeah, I hate it when people do that with MS. I'm one of the few people that would be MORE likely to buy a product because of MS branding! I hate Apple's business practices, I hate Macs, and I hate Mac OS; but the Apple branding didn't stop me from buying an iPhone 3GS, cause I care about whether a product is good MORE than who made it.

Seriously though, we can enjoy Firefox (or Opera, Safari, or whatever you use) and claim that IE is dead (dead things literally move faster than IE), but the fact of matter is that IE still has the majority of the market share. Even if MS were to remove IE from Windows globally, most people would still pick that as their browser, because that is all most people know. Sadly, the majority of computer users are not "Power Users" and most of them are not even aware of the "browser wars".

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by petrossa View Post
Ahem. That's exactly the beef of the EU, the 'integrated' part. And for the not including IE in the EU MS can of course but the EU will not accept it as a valid solution so they still risk sanctions.
The EU's "beef" has nothing to do with IE and Windows 7. If it did, they would have accepted MS's compromise. The European Commission just wants to get more money out of MS. They really want MS to offer competitor's services alongside their own? Come on...


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06 Jul 2009   #52
fseal

Windows 7 x64 Ultimate
 
 

Ugh.

Not that this post will change anything or anyones mind, especially not the EUs. But please, for the last time...

IE is NOT "integrated" into Windows!

The HTML rendering engine "MSHTML" or "Trident" is the HTML renderer that is used by several other components of Windows and by third party programs. IE is merely one more program that uses the MSHTML component EXACTLY the way FF uses the "Gecko" component to display HTML on screen.

It's like saying that if even one other program or system component distributed with any Linux distro uses Gecko to display say, HTML help, that FF is "Integrated" into Linux, and no one would say that!

IE is not "Integrated" it is "included". "Trident" is integrated and it SHOULD BE. Or do people actually expect every single program that ever wanted to use HTML as a rich text display mechanism to have to write their own rendering engine???
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06 Jul 2009   #53
petrossa

vista x64/ win 7 x64
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by BCXtreme View Post
The EU's "beef" has nothing to do with IE and Windows 7. If it did, they would have accepted MS's compromise. The European Commission just wants to get more money out of MS. They really want MS to offer competitor's services alongside their own? Come on...
again, the fines levied by the EU get redistributed over the member countries per ratio of their contribution.

The EU however has to pay the whole court circus, so in the end the EU loses on their budget for each case they start.

And in any case it really would need all of MS's cashreserves to make even a minute difference in the EU budget of 113 000 000 000 euro

The European Union Budget at a glance
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06 Jul 2009   #54
petrossa

vista x64/ win 7 x64
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by fseal View Post
Ugh.

Not that this post will change anything or anyones mind, especially not the EUs. But please, for the last time...

IE is NOT "integrated" into Windows!

The HTML rendering engine "MSHTML" or "Trident" is the HTML renderer that is used by several other components of Windows and by third party programs. IE is merely one more program that uses the MSHTML component EXACTLY the way FF uses the "Gecko" component to display HTML on screen.

It's like saying that if even one other program or system component distributed with any Linux distro uses Gecko to display say, HTML help, that FF is "Integrated" into Linux, and no one would say that!

IE is not "Integrated" it is "included". "Trident" is integrated and it SHOULD BE. Or do people actually expect every single program that ever wanted to use HTML as a rich text display mechanism to have to write their own rendering engine???

Taking the code out of IE and integrating it in the OS and then saying that IE is not integrated to circumvent US antitrust agreements is so blatantly taking the mickey that it amazes you can say it with a straight face.
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06 Jul 2009   #55
Lordbob75

Windows 7 Ultimate x64, Mint 9
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by fseal View Post
IE is NOT "integrated" into Windows!
And by integrated, we all know that it means included. Except you apparently.

~Lordbob
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06 Jul 2009   #56
fseal

Windows 7 x64 Ultimate
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by petrossa View Post

Taking the code out of IE and integrating it in the OS and then saying that IE is not integrated to circumvent US antitrust agreements is so blatantly taking the mickey that it amazes you can say it with a straight face.
WRONG!

Unless you are prepared to say that FF has also "Integtrated" itself into Linux and Windows as well.

The reason that MS and the Moz team did that is because it is standard programming practice and GOOD programming practice to create resuable componetized systems. It had NOTHING whatsoever to do with "circumventing" anything. That is nothing but a hysterical conspiracy theory.

Everyone's utterly non-tecnical view of the situation IS the problem.
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06 Jul 2009   #57
petrossa

vista x64/ win 7 x64
 
 

Sure, whatever dude
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06 Jul 2009   #58
fseal

Windows 7 x64 Ultimate
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Lordbob75 View Post
And by integrated, we all know that it means included. Except you apparently.

~Lordbob
"Integrated" and "Included" do not mean the same thing at all.

"Included" means it can be removed without affecting anythig butitself.

"Integrated" means that it cannot be removed without drastic reduction of functionality by multiple components.

IE is "included".

Trident is "Integrated".

Non technical people's lack of understanding of these fundimental issues is the biggest problem with the entire situation.
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06 Jul 2009   #59
Lordbob75

Windows 7 Ultimate x64, Mint 9
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by fseal View Post
"Integrated" and "Included" do not mean the same thing at all.

"Included" means it can be removed without affecting anythig butitself.

"Integrated" means that it cannot be removed without drastic reduction of functionality by multiple components.

IE is "included".

Trident is "Integrated".

Non technical people's lack of understanding of these fundimental issues is the biggest problem with the entire situation.
I did not say they were the same. I said in this case, that is what we meant.
Integrated is NOT the same as included. I agree.
In this case, when the EU says "integrated", they mean included.
I think at a certain point IE really WAS integrated, and unremovable. It is not now, but the point stands.

~Lordbob
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06 Jul 2009   #60
petrossa

vista x64/ win 7 x64
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by fseal View Post

Non technical people's lack of understanding of these fundimental issues is the biggest problem with the entire situation.
How would you know who's 'technical' or not? I retired at 45 because i sold my software company after 4 years for a good price.

Taking such an attitude is really a parlor trick which predates the neanderthalers. 'You just don't understand' works maybe with young co-eds but doesn't impress me much.

Having been around when MS put encrypted code in Windows 3 so it would arbitrary crash on dr-dos makes me a very wary person when MS starts to move blocks of code around AFTER the antitrust agreement.
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 Microsoft Keeps Beating a Dead Browser




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