Normal service is resumed as Windows 7's growth once again.....

gregrocker said:

andrew129260 said:

Security is the main issue.

Adobe reader is like java. It should be avoided.

First I've heard of it. Please explain.

Surely one of the hundreds of installs I've put Adobe Reader on would have reported it?

There was a period a couple of years ago when a lot of exploits were the result of having Adobe Reader (not Flash) installed on your Window PC.

From the year 2000 through today, Java, Adobe Reader and Flash were responsible for 66% of the vulnerabilities exploited by malware on Windows, according to a new study by research group AV-Test Institute.

The study reinforces the well-known rule that keeping applications software up to date is of critical importance for system security. The study does not indicate how many of the exploits were active when the vulnerabilities were unpatched, but such exploits are undoubtedly a small percentage of the total.

ZDNet - Larry Seltzer
Java, Reader and Flash are most-exploited Windows programs | ZDNet

BTW, nice wallpapers gregrocker (post #209)

Wrend said:

So change for the sake of change so I can change it back to what I already have and get to waste my time and money in the process?



As far as touch devices go, I prefer running Android (and therefore also Windows 7 with my remote desktop app which list my Android devices' storage as drives in Windows for file transfer, streaming, etc. - at no additional cost beyond my internet connections) on them.

Windows 8 isn't the way of the future; it's a useless tangent (my opinion).

No offense to those of you who like it. I'm glad for you that you do, just don't expect me (nor the majority of people) to follow suit and be convinced otherwise.

Hi there

I have to disagree with you here a LOT.

There is a huge amount of MOBILE computing done now out in the field as well as traditional "Deskbound" computing -- for example in Engineering say a service engineer gets a report of a fault of an electricity substation or pylon -- well in "the old days" a computer generated paper list would be consulted to see who is available, the Engineer would go out and make an inspection, then draft a written report and manually bring it back to the office where it would again be manually entered into some backend system for analysis and the appropriate repair could be scheduled.

Now with mobile devices the control centre can get hold immediately of the nearest available engineer who goes to the site, then using a tablet type of device (maybe a Windows surface pro) fills in an inspection report together with any photos, transmits these to the computer where the whole maintenance (getting parts, scheduling the job, authorising payment to 3rd parties etc etc) can be started immediately. Using a Pen / touch device is FAR EASIER for the field engineer.

Similarly any sort of automated warehousing - retrieving / stacking stocks, picking, packing etc are done with infra red and touch devices. The OS needs to be capable of working with these sorts of devices and W7 just isn't geared without a horrendous total re-write to interfacing with these devices.

I'm getting my Surface Pro 3 (the new Windows one) soon and it's just as good as any workplace desktop is likely to be - it's convenient and for giving demos in meeting rooms etc it's FAR FAR more convenient than a bulky laptop with cables, power issues, screen resolutions etc. The Surface can WIRELESSLY connect to the Smart TV in the meeting room and gone are the days where I'll be forced to sit through meetings with somebody displaying a screen in hideously poor resolution and colour using the old VGA standard on a roll down "projector screen".

Even carrying the device is easier and much lighter than a laptop. (Note I'm addressing remarks here to essentially Pro I.T people rather than dedicated gamers.

Windows 8 and its future variants and developments are geared for these types of devices - you need both a tablet type of device and something that acts as a desktop (now incorporated into a decent SINGLE device) and having an OS that handles both of these devices is the way of the future -- Windows 7 good though it is for "Classic desktop" applications isn't going anywhere in mobile areas -- as well as Engineering don't forget Robotics too and all sorts of other areas which need to interface with a sophisticated OS.

Most Android devices don't have the sophistication of being able to interface with ERP type of backend systems for things like automated warehousing - Windows does and things like the new Surface Pro will just show the TRUE potential of Windows 8.1 and its development. (I say Windows 8.1 because it is a BIG change from Windows 8 which was a bit of a dogs dinner -- 90% of the problems have been fixed in 8.1 and 8.2 is just around the corner.

Things for example like SAP Mobile need some sort of decent processing power on your mobile as well as good connectivity with the back end systems -- your average Android device just won't be good enough -- and while an iPad could do it - why use TWO devices when ONE will do -- a lot of businesses are buying into the Surface Pro 3 -- Ms has a winner here. The IT dept also only needs to use ONE system *say Windows 8.1) for interfacing with the back end stuff rather than have to sort out Android, Apple and zillions of Linux distros that the end clients are using -- simpler too.

For people 100% deskbound to a computer -OK you can stick with W7 - but that's NOT the way of the future -- mobile computing is where its going (generally). There are a few exceptions -- such as gamers but even for creative work such as advertising etc using mobile devices will play a far bigger part than doing this totally from a rigid fixed desktop or bulky non touch enabled laptop with its usually poor 768 X 1366 screen resolution.

Finally - a horrible thing about Android -- I'm sure a lot of users have often encountered this on their mobile phones -- is that application updates often JUST DON'T WORK and there isn't any decent way of bringing back a previous version -- I'm sure you've encountered this - a decent app suddenly stops working after an automatic upgrade. !! No business can operate without some sort of decent change control management -- Android just isn't built for that type of professional use in a large corporate system.

Cheers
jimbo

jimbo45 said:

Wrend said:

So change for the sake of change so I can change it back to what I already have and get to waste my time and money in the process?



As far as touch devices go, I prefer running Android (and therefore also Windows 7 with my remote desktop app which list my Android devices' storage as drives in Windows for file transfer, streaming, etc. - at no additional cost beyond my internet connections) on them.

Windows 8 isn't the way of the future; it's a useless tangent (my opinion).

No offense to those of you who like it. I'm glad for you that you do, just don't expect me (nor the majority of people) to follow suit and be convinced otherwise.

Hi there

I have to disagree with you here a LOT.

There is a huge amount of MOBILE computing done now out in the field as well as traditional "Deskbound" computing -- for example in Engineering say a service engineer gets a report of a fault of an electricity substation or pylon -- well in "the old days" a computer generated paper list would be consulted to see who is available, the Engineer would go out and make an inspection, then draft a written report and manually bring it back to the office where it would again be manually entered into some backend system for analysis and the appropriate repair could be scheduled.

Now with mobile devices the control centre can get hold immediately of the nearest available engineer who goes to the site, then using a tablet type of device (maybe a Windows surface pro) fills in an inspection report together with any photos, transmits these to the computer where the whole maintenance (getting parts, scheduling the job, authorising payment to 3rd parties etc etc) can be started immediately. Using a Pen / touch device is FAR EASIER for the field engineer.

Similarly any sort of automated warehousing - retrieving / stacking stocks, picking, packing etc are done with infra red and touch devices. The OS needs to be capable of working with these sorts of devices and W7 just isn't geared without a horrendous total re-write to interfacing with these devices.

I'm getting my Surface Pro 3 (the new Windows one) soon and it's just as good as any workplace desktop is likely to be - it's convenient and for giving demos in meeting rooms etc it's FAR FAR more convenient than a bulky laptop with cables, power issues, screen resolutions etc. The Surface can WIRELESSLY connect to the Smart TV in the meeting room and gone are the days where I'll be forced to sit through meetings with somebody displaying a screen in hideously poor resolution and colour using the old VGA standard on a roll down "projector screen".

Even carrying the device is easier and much lighter than a laptop. (Note I'm addressing remarks here to essentially Pro I.T people rather than dedicated gamers.

Windows 8 and its future variants and developments are geared for these types of devices - you need both a tablet type of device and something that acts as a desktop (now incorporated into a decent SINGLE device) and having an OS that handles both of these devices is the way of the future -- Windows 7 good though it is for "Classic desktop" applications isn't going anywhere in mobile areas -- as well as Engineering don't forget Robotics too and all sorts of other areas which need to interface with a sophisticated OS.

Most Android devices don't have the sophistication of being able to interface with ERP type of backend systems for things like automated warehousing - Windows does and things like the new Surface Pro will just show the TRUE potential of Windows 8.1 and its development. (I say Windows 8.1 because it is a BIG change from Windows 8 which was a bit of a dogs dinner -- 90% of the problems have been fixed in 8.1 and 8.2 is just around the corner.

Things for example like SAP Mobile need some sort of decent processing power on your mobile as well as good connectivity with the back end systems -- your average Android device just won't be good enough -- and while an iPad could do it - why use TWO devices when ONE will do -- a lot of businesses are buying into the Surface Pro 3 -- Ms has a winner here. The IT dept also only needs to use ONE system *say Windows 8.1) for interfacing with the back end stuff rather than have to sort out Android, Apple and zillions of Linux distros that the end clients are using -- simpler too.

For people 100% deskbound to a computer -OK you can stick with W7 - but that's NOT the way of the future -- mobile computing is where its going (generally). There are a few exceptions -- such as gamers but even for creative work such as advertising etc using mobile devices will play a far bigger part than doing this totally from a rigid fixed desktop or bulky non touch enabled laptop with its usually poor 768 X 1366 screen resolution.

Finally - a horrible thing about Android -- I'm sure a lot of users have often encountered this on their mobile phones -- is that application updates often JUST DON'T WORK and there isn't any decent way of bringing back a previous version -- I'm sure you've encountered this - a decent app suddenly stops working after an automatic upgrade. !! No business can operate without some sort of decent change control management -- Android just isn't built for that type of professional use in a large corporate system.

Cheers
jimbo

While, when it comes to businesses, I agree that Win 8 is better suited for mobile applications and those uses are increasing, mobile computing is still is only a tangent while desktop computing will still carry the bulk of the work. Win 7 meets desktop needs but can still interface with mobile devices. As long as workers are confined to offices and, especially, desks and cubicles, desktop computing will remain king. M$ is nuts to be ignoring that rather large segment of its user base.

While tablets can replace paper lists, paper and ink or toner is still cheaper unless one is dealing with huge volumes. Paper is also less likely to break if dropped (duh!) and is cheaper to replace if damaged by weather. Paper can be folded to fit in a pocket; a tablet has to be made smaller to do that, requiring cumbersome scrolling to find entries that could have been found much more quickly on a larger sheet of paper. while you disparage smart phones, they actually make more sense for fieldwork than tablets. I worked in warehousing for 30 years for an electric/utility company and, while we were using more and more mobile devices (in fact, I was championing them long before they started to be used), tablets would never survive in use. Not all warehouses are like Amazon's. I worked in the field on line crews before I went into warehousing and supported those crews as well as other fields and I know darned well what their needs are. A tablet will never replace, large multipage prints.

Android isn't just for smartphones; many tablets also use it successfully and at a lower cost. One just has to be selective of the apps being used. And Android has one heck of a better app selection available than Win 8; even iPads have a better selection within their walled garden.

Finally, for many applications, there is no replacement for a full size keyboard with a separate numb pad and even macro keys, more monitor real estate (especially with multiple monitors), and a mouse. Try formatting a full page of music on a tablet (all commercial music engraving is done on computers now), especially multiple pages. The same for documents, multiple graphics (especially advanced CAD work), etc. You may be able to dock a tablet to various peripherals such as keyboards, mice and monitors, but it will lack the power of even a good laptop.

Touch screens are ideal for tablets—for that matter, they are the only practical input device for them—but they will never have the precision of a mouse, especially when fine detail is involved. Even on a laptop, a touch pad makes far more sense than a touchscreen because it takes far less hand and arm movement to do anything. I detest touch pads but I would rather use one that use a touch screen.

In the case of my single monitor (soon to become three) at home, if it was a touch screen, I would have to move my hand 18.5" to get from one side of the screen to the other, and involve my arms and shoulders in the process, something my old shoulders would not have appreciated. Even youngsters would eventually develop problems over time. However, it takes only a 12-14" movement to go from my keyboard top my mouse and that movement requires far less movement of my arms and shoulder. Once my paw is on the mouse, I can go from one side of the screen to the other with only 4" of movement, almost all of which can be accommodated with just my wrist. I can set the mouse to require less movement but I prefer the increased accuracy of my present setting. (Btw, I'm not a gamer).

Tablets are great for people who just surf the web and check emails. Tablets and smartphones have become popular because that is what computing is to most people. Also, most people want instant gratification now and tablets and smartphones can provide that albeit it at lower quality. But for any kind of serious, involved work, the desktops still rule and touch is not practical. Yet, mobile computing was what M$ was trying to drive us to with Win 8 (along with Apple's walled garden and total control) and the public, especially businesses, responded with how they felt about the way M$ was trying to do so by refusing to buy into it (literally).

(Sent from my desktop PC using a real keyboard.)

I think Jimbo is seeing the Surface Pro through Rose Tinted Spectacles. Maybe those stupid M$ adverts have got to you. OK it is a nice device but give me a real desktop computer with a 22" (and larger) monitor. I am lucky enough to have 4 machines running on my 3 monitors on my desk. 2 run exclusively Windows 7 and the other 2 swap between 7 and a non metro 8.1. I have experience of working in the field with a laptop. All of our operations and scheduling part ordering was carried out online. Clients basement...no signal...Clients front room next to Plasma TV ...no signal,way out in the boonies...no signal...system went down...no work that day.....Yet amazingly with a computer at home and a high speed connection I could order all my parts reschedule the calls and order parts. Mobile only works if the infrastructure is there and it certainly is not here in Indiana. I wonder how it is in hilly areas as where I am is flat as a panckae yet there are still no and poor reception pockets. Hell sometimes I never knew if I had ordered the part due to poor signal as the system hung. Then 3 of the parts showed up due to errors. No Jimbo as an engineer I prefer a computer and a printed backup as the paper does not suddenly go blank on me when I need it the most.
For me that would be Windows 7 or Windows 8.1 with the metro balls up cut off. IE Castrated.

You think mobile coverage is bad on your side of the Mississippi? It's worse on my side.

Mobile is growing big time. It surly has take it's place in the computing world.
One can choose mobile or stationary or better yet both.
It's not one or the other.

Just give us a operating system or systems that work great on both.
Normally a fit all (anything) does just that. Fits everything but fits nothing well.

For all those that use mobile device; it's not mandatory to throw away your PC.
Your allowed to own and use both if you so desire. At least in this country of mine.

jimbo45 said:

The number of purely deskbound people sitting in those 1960's style of "tiny cubes" in an office is definitely rapidly diminishing

Where's the evidence for this? In the company I work for I can guarantee there are thousands of people working in that exact environment, and any other Aerospace or automotive company. And call centers, and distribution companies, and God knows how many other businesses. None of them need a mobile device as they're all still deskbound, they're not going to be sitting in a windy, wet field with a Surface Pro.