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Windows 7: Tweaking boot time (classpnp.sys?)

09 Aug 2010   #31
madtownidiot

 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by pparks1 View Post
In my experience, the slow booting and performance issues almost always start AFTER the end-user spends some time installing a bunch of garbage. Even the factory configured machines are denoted as snappy and fast when brand new...but given time....with all of the crap that people install without giving it a second thought and their new computer slows to a crawl.
I agree completely, and that's exactly the reason I like to sell computers with a minimal set of installed programs and a streamlined startup configuration. Some computers start slow from the beginning, mainly as a result of a hangup in loading a less than optimal hardware driver or outdated bios running new hardware.. some business machines can take a long time to post because of a TPM or security chip, and there really isn't much that can be done about it except to disable it in bios if it isn't necessary, but my primary focus is on streamlining everything else as much as possible

and how much of your next years income would you be willing to place on future service packs and windows updates not adding significantly to the initial system load at startup, even if you didn't install any other programs or hardware?


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09 Aug 2010   #32
pparks1

Windows 7 Ultimate x64
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by madtownidiot View Post
I agree completely, and that's exactly the reason I like to sell computers with a minimal set of installed programs and a streamlined startup configuration.
But even if you streamline it 100%, the minute the end-user gets it and starts downloading and installing a bunch of garbage, it just slows down anyway. So, not sure much is really being accomplished.

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by madtownidiot View Post
and how much of your next years income would you be willing to place on future service packs and windows updates not adding significantly to the initial system load at startup, even if you didn't install any other programs or hardware?
I'd be willing to bet that if no applications were installed and no spyware/malware was introduced onto the machine, that future windows updates and service packs might impact performance slightly...but it wouldn't significantly alter performance.
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09 Aug 2010   #33
Digerati

Windows 7 Profession 64-bit
 
 

Quote:
Believe me when I tell you, that's what people want.
Nobody's denying, or arguing that people don't want to sit around waiting for Windows to load.

Quote:
mainly laptops
Not really a fair comparison. Notebooks for years have successfully used hibernation mode - while PCs (until Windows 7) have been problematic. And it is certainly not a fair comparison (or marketing strategy) to compare startup and shutdown times of Win7 to earlier versions. That is an inherent feature(?) or characteristic of Windows 7. That is a selling point for Windows 7, but again, not an indication of "performance".

Quote:
Instead of having everything run at startup, I advise people to pin the apps they use most often to the taskbar, which then loads them into superfetch after the 1st run.
And that is a good strategy, no doubt - especially if (1) they don't use the program all the time, or (2) they have limited resources. But as I noted on page 2,
Quote:
Many folks have cameras, card readers, external drives, printers, email programs, PDA devices, various security programs including AV, AS, FW programs, HW monitors, special mouse and keyboard programs, dual monitors, networked/mapped drives, etc. that start at boot.
Those all affect boot times.

I have to correct myself from something I said earlier. I said it takes about 15 seconds to bring my system out of hybrid sleep mode - I was wrong. I counted this time, and it took less than 8 seconds.
Quote:
edit... @digerati, I'm using WD RE4 drives, (the RE stands for RAID Edition) which are configured at the hardware level for RAID 0 and need no additional drivers in windows. R/W speeds are averaging 250 MB/s read and 190 MB/s write
Are you telling us that when you look in Device Manager, you don't see a RAID controller? Because I am familiar with WD RE drives and from my understanding, and confirmed by my reading of this, there is no "intelligence" in the drives that allows them to set themselves up in a RAID configuration when two or more of those drives are installed in a system. These drives are simply designed, and marketed for RAID applications - like any "server-class" drive. The only RAID feature they have, unless I'm missing something, is they provide RAID error reporting, but that's it. Otherwise, I am sure that would be prominently listed here. If I'm wrong, can you provide a link?

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Laker
Digerati - Confused no, uniformed and curious... YES!
Hey! Nothing wrong with that! With IT being a monstrous industry consisting of many industries, the bonus for me coming here and sharing what I know is the exposure to so many experienced users from areas within IT I didn't even know exists! Learning something new along the way is always a good thing. Plus, I hate to be wrong and I am more often than I like - so minimizing that potential forces me to verify, and corroborate with links before I put my foot in my mouth.

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by pparks1
In my experience, the slow booting and performance issues almost always start AFTER the end-user spends some time installing a bunch of garbage. Even the factory configured machines are denoted as snappy and fast when brand new...but given time....with all of the crap that people install without giving it a second thought and their new computer slows to a crawl.
I agree - sort of. There are many great programs out there that some folks feel should be on every computer. CCleaner may be one of them - it is certainly on all of mine. But the problem is, the folks at Piriform need to pay their bills too, so they attempt to foist the Yahoo toolbar on your system if you just haphazardly go along with the default install. Other programs try to put ASK, or a download manager or who knows what. Before long, you may have a 1/2 dozen or more toolbars, download managers, automatic update checkers and all kinds of other stuff.

So the problem is not so much what they install, but how they install it. Folks should ALWAYS use the custom install option and PAY ATTENTION to each and every prompt, check box, and option and make sure only the program you want is being installed. And that is not just for free or shareware programs either. You should use the custom install for ALL program installs.
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09 Aug 2010   #34
madtownidiot

 

XP sp3 adds at least 200-250 MB to the memory/page load over the initial version of xp, which is pretty significant.... then there's the incredible bloat that comes with each new version of office and IE.. what's it going to take to run IE 9 or office 15 when it arrives? Can't do anything about that.. and you can't tell people not to install a bunch of garbage either, cause they just don't listen... it's a given that an operating system and it's programs will expand to fill all available resources (and then some), but I still think it's a good idea to provide the best possible starting point

@ digerati... yes there is a raid controller in dev manager, but it works perfectly without my having to install any further applications and the extra drivers that come with them. Same with my graphics controller. I installed the drivers but not the ati control panel that came with it.

.... and amen about the damn toolbars that come with almost everything you download, unfortunately most users aren't savvy enough to know that..

ccleaner is a great app, but not quite thorough enough, because windows won't allow ccleaner to alter protected system files. I manually clear everything ccleaner does and then some by booting linux from a flash drive. for example, system volume information is not a necessary folder in anything besides the OS and program partition... and getting rid of it on the 1.5 TB media partition that holds my (1340GB) music and movie collection can free up as much as 30 GB without causing any problems.
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09 Aug 2010   #35
Digerati

Windows 7 Profession 64-bit
 
 

Quote:
@ digerati... yes there is a raid controller in dev manager, but it works perfectly without my having to install any further applications and the extra drivers that come with them
Okay - now we are on the same page. But please understand, while you may not have installed any WD applications (or special drivers by pressing F6 during the install, as we had to with XP), Windows 7 sees that RAID during the boot process (when loading in the CMOS information), then loads the applicable controller drivers. They may be native drivers, but they are still being loaded. You probably have a service or two running too. Actually, since native, they surely load much quicker so that's a good thing - and just another reason why Windows 7 is the best Windows yet.
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09 Aug 2010   #36
pparks1

Windows 7 Ultimate x64
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Digerati View Post
I agree - sort of. There are many great programs out there that some folks feel should be on every computer. CCleaner may be one of them - it is certainly on all of mine.
Ha, we already have a disagreement. Not that I have anything fundamentally wrong with Piriform....but my experience with CCleaner has been hit or miss in terms of resolving significant issues. Therefore, I usually don't use it or install it....and my general recommendation to average folks is to not use it as it could cause them more problems than it solves.

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Digerati View Post
So the problem is not so much what they install, but how they install it. Folks should ALWAYS use the custom install option and PAY ATTENTION to each and every prompt, check box, and option and make sure only the program you want is being installed. And that is not just for free or shareware programs either. You should use the custom install for ALL program installs.
I do agree with this. As we know, even the good free stuff comes with added baggage you might not want. And the bad free stuff...almost always comes with tons you don't want. Unfortunately, many people are unable to differentiate between the good free stuff and the bad free stuff.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
09 Aug 2010   #37
madtownidiot

 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Digerati View Post
... just another reason why Windows 7 is the best Windows yet.
definitely couldn't agree more. Setting up raid in bios took about 4 minutes, allocating and formatting the HDD partitions took about 10 minutes using gparted from a ubuntu live flash drive, and win 7 installed in 25 minutes from a 32 GB SSD. Total time to set up after I assembled everything (can't really call it building) was maybe 2 hours, which is faster than with any previous OS I've used in the past 10 years, including ubuntu, which usually requires about 500-800 MB of downloads and updates after the initial installation just to get most of the capabilities win7 has already built in.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
09 Aug 2010   #38
Digerati

Windows 7 Profession 64-bit
 
 

Concerning CCleaner, I assume you are referring to the registry cleaner portion. I like it simply because it is not very aggressive, as opposed to others that find 900 "problems". But it is the crud cleaning I like it for - though I generally recommend Windows own Disk Cleanup in the same breath - in part because it will clean out old restore points too, but also because it is already there.
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09 Aug 2010   #39
Echo147

Windows 7 Home Premium (x64)
 
 

Blinkin' heck, what have I started

Regarding RAID, it most certainly does load drivers despite appearing as a single "hard drive" to Windows. I've used arrays for the OS for about 5 years, and when ghosting to a new one but forgetting to put drivers in place, you'll most definitely get the dreaded 0x0000007b inaccessible boot device STOP error. Trick is to pop the new card in before swapping the old one out, boot normally, point it to the necessary drivers, then make a fresh ghost for migration.

Out of interest, I dusted off a ps2 keyboard from the shelf, killed off all SATA burners and USB ports in BIOS, and shaved about 20 seconds off - course that's a pretty crippled system so they got re-enabled pretty quick.

Hybrid sleep is a good suggestion, sadly this Razer mouse loses my bind preferences when it resumes, other than vanilla left/right.

Think I just have to accept that many of the dead quick times from that thread must be systems with the minimum of hardware connected and virtually nothing in startup.
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09 Aug 2010   #40
madtownidiot

 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Echo147 View Post
Blinkin' heck, what have I started
Think I just have to accept that many of the dead quick times from that thread must be systems with the minimum of hardware connected and virtually nothing in startup.
exactly right... and why I disagree with some who say startup time is no indication of performance.. to the contrary, if you ignore the time it takes for POST and eliminate as many software and hardware variables as possible, you end up with what I consider a reasonably accurate benchmark.
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 Tweaking boot time (classpnp.sys?)




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