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Windows 7: Minimalist RAM Usage?

11 Aug 2009   #11
spazzie

Windows XP Professional
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by dmex View Post
Caching helps prolong the use of SSD drives, the life of a SSD drive decreases with each read/write

I will say that from reading your current posts that you dont have a reasonable idea how the memory caching works at all, If you took the time to learn about the changes and research/run tests then you wouldn't have any problem with it....I just started an extra 30 instances of Visual Studio just to show some examples here...

Attachment 22552

Look at the collums for each process, each instance of Visual Studio (devenv) has commited 21mb of data, has an available working set of 27MB available, currently shares 19MB between each process with an actual real memory use of 7MB (private).

You will notice all the instances of Visual Studio are sharing 19MB with a Private memory use of 7MB, after the first instance is running Windows is able to use that existing process's shareable memory for launching each new process and share xxx amount of ram with that process resulting in an actual private use of 7mb saving 20MB for each new instance I create, A classic example of these improvements with Memory Management if Firefox, You will notice its first launch after booting up your system is really slow but each new instance after that is launched near instantly.

That just never happened on XP, all these instances of Visual Studio would have consumed 27Mb of ram each instead of 7MB and ate all my available RAM.

You also have idea that the cached ram is actually slowing your applications down, You can see from the screenshot that I have 30mb of free ram with 2.1GB of cached ram... For example, when launching TF2 or CSS they query the amount of available RAM and reserve about 400mb each, Windows simply doesn't inform the requesting application that its using that ram for caching and consequently CSS/TF2 just over-writes the memory addresses its using, theres no unloading/clearing/deleting or whatever your thinking is going on that could possibly slow your system down... If it has to write data onto your page-file or something then it will defintly cause a slow down while that takes place.

BTW, Look at the Hard Faults/Sec graph on the right, That is your actual read/write usage of your RAM and you can see its almost nothing even though Im using 2gb RAM right now, That was also non-existent on XP and it would be constantly read/writing to your RAM resulting in a massive slowdown when your maximum RAM capacity was reached.

You could be listening to music, playing games, burning a DVD and transcoding a Movie and whatever else without even realising you had zero ram available provided you had a minimum 2-4gb ram installed, Yes you would notice a slow down while switching between applications but launching instances of current applications is near instantaneous and thats also something you could never do on XP.

Microsoft devs know more about Windows and its core management than anyone else, their much smarter then you or me and dont just do things because they feel like it, they play games, watch movies, burn dvds...etc just like "normal people" and dont just go around changing things because their bored, just like us...they want better management of things like Memory usage but hey if you feel that your smarter then you more than welcome to go ahead disable what you feel like.
I can only speak from experience. The everyday Vista user is frustrated at why their PC requires 5 - 10 minutes before their PC is responsive to what they need to do. Even Microsoft engineers suggest users wait until Vista completes its caching (from Microsoft springboard series).

Windows Vista Performance Roundtable
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/w.../aa904820.aspx
Technical Chat with Mark Russinovich

I think we can all agree that Vista was/is the beginning of the end for Microsoft. This crazy obsession of launching applications instantly when 99% of applications launch pretty much instantly off HDD/SDD anyway is just one example.

And Ubuntu plus other Linux distro's aren't exactly performance wizards even on high spec hardware!

Ultimately the biggest looser in this massive gamble with re-engineering the memory management of Vista / Windows 7 is foreground application and Explorer shell responsiveness. And Microsoft still haven't listened with Windows 7.

Lets hope Google understands what users need rather than giving users a slow bloated OS that even Intel wouldn't touch alongside every large enterprise I have worked for. 2010 will be an interesting year as many IT teams begin to deploy Windows 7 to small test groups of Windows XP users.


My System SpecsSystem Spec
.
11 Aug 2009   #12
Antman

 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by spazzie View Post
...every large enterprise I have worked for...
The verison of Windows deployed on your equipment appears to be Windows CE. We have been looking for personnel with experience using point-of-sale equipment at Burger King. McDonald's, one of the largest enterprises in the world, would be happy to avail ourselves of your vastly limited knowledge and superior grasp of baseless arguments. On the surface, you appear to be smarter than any of the engineers at any of the Big Five tech companies. We would like to determine exactly how thin the veneer is. Please pick up an application today.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
11 Aug 2009   #13
dmex

 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by spazzie View Post
I can only speak from experience. The everyday Vista user is frustrated at why their PC requires 5 - 10 minutes before their PC is responsive to what they need to do. Even Microsoft engineers suggest users wait until Vista completes its caching (from Microsoft springboard series).

Windows Vista Performance Roundtable
Windows Vista Service Pack (SP2) | Support, Deployment, Resources
Technical Chat with Mark Russinovich

I think we can all agree that Vista was/is the beginning of the end for Microsoft. This crazy obsession of launching applications instantly when 99% of applications launch pretty much instantly off HDD/SDD anyway is just one example.

And Ubuntu plus other Linux distro's aren't exactly performance wizards even on high spec hardware!

Ultimately the biggest looser in this massive gamble with re-engineering the memory management of Vista / Windows 7 is foreground application and Explorer shell responsiveness. And Microsoft still haven't listened with Windows 7.

Lets hope Google understands what users need rather than giving users a slow bloated OS that even Intel wouldn't touch alongside every large enterprise I have worked for. 2010 will be an interesting year as many IT teams begin to deploy Windows 7 to small test groups of Windows XP users.
spazzie,

Were not talking about Vista, We arnt talking about Linux, I dont care what you think the future of Microsoft will be, How can you know what Googles unreleased/unseen operating will be like? Whats with all this bull****! Arnt we trying to help you with your machine??

Ive seen all of Marks videos, Maybe you should see his last one talking about Windows 7, while you there go lookup all the Windows 7 videos form Microsoft developers.. You might actually learn something

Mark Russinovich, Windows 7:
Mark Russinovich: Inside Windows 7 | Going Deep | Channel 9

Follow up Video:
Arun Kishan: Inside Windows 7 - Farewell to the Windows Kernel Dispatcher Lock | Going Deep | Channel 9

Chittur Subbaraman: Inside Windows 7 - Service Controller and Background Processing | Going Deep | Channel 9

Dave Probert: Inside Windows 7 - User Mode Scheduler (UMS) | Going Deep | Channel 9
My System SpecsSystem Spec
.

11 Aug 2009   #14
pparks1

Windows 7 Ultimate x64
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by spazzie View Post
I think we can all agree that Vista was/is the beginning of the end for Microsoft.
I'm not sure that I agree with this statement. While Vista was a bit shaky at first, due to large changes in way drivers and such worked, it became much better over time. The only way the end could be near for MS is if there was something else on the horizon picking up steam and starting to take over. As far as I know, there are 0 significant competitors here.

While vista was skipped by quite a number of enterprise customers, I don't necessarily think the same is going to be true for Win7. Win7 provides the benefits of Vista with significantly better performance and efficient use of the hardware. Plus, businesses have had a few more years to replace some of the lower-end equipment that would have never performed well with Vista in the first place.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
12 Aug 2009   #15
EarlZ

Windows 7 Ultimate X64 RTM
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by darkassain View Post
Superfetch and Prefetch only cach apps and never has cache the files used themselves (and this includes Vista)...
Wrong, Go boot up your Vista install if you still have it and launch resource monitor, goto the disk view and sort it by read/min and see for your self.

Maybe a PC that is exclusive to work stuff alone only gets to see applications prefetched since theres nothing more to cache, on my system the torrent zip files,avi files basically anything gets precached, i didnt mind it so much since i bought 8GB's just for that.

With windows 7, a lot of my applications/games launch noticeably slower since the cache is too conservative this time. But that is not a show stopper for me anyway.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
12 Aug 2009   #16
darkassain

Windows 7 Ult x64(x2), HomePrem x32(x4), Server 08 (+VM), 08 R2 (VM) , SuSe 11.2 (VM), XP 32 (VM)
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by EarlZ View Post
Wrong, Go boot up your Vista install if you still have it and launch resource monitor, goto the disk view and sort it by read/min and see for your self.
i dont understand why this has to do with caching files (avi and the like)...


Quote:
Maybe a PC that is exclusive to work stuff alone only gets to see applications prefetched since theres nothing more to cache, on my system the torrent zip files,avi files basically anything gets precached, i didnt mind it so much since i bought 8GB's just for that.
as you can read there are several articles explaining this...

Windows Vista I/O technologies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Quote:
SuperFetch is a technology that pre-loads commonly used applications into memory to reduce their load times.
Windows Administration: Inside the Windows Vista Kernel: Part 2
Quote:
It stores this information in scenario files with a .db extension in the %SystemRoot%\Prefetch directory alongside standard prefetch files used to optimize application launch.

in short it only caches data and code that is necessary for the application to launch and nothing more...
there should be no avi or torrent files being cached....


Quote:
With windows 7, a lot of my applications/games launch noticeably slower since the cache is too conservative this time. But that is not a show stopper for me anyway.
from the guy himself
Mark's Blog : Pushing the Limits of Windows: Physical Memory


Quote:
During Windows7 development, we made a number of improvements to how Superfetch manages memory. Many of these changes were directly in response to customer comments. At a high level, some of these improvements are as follows:

(1) Be quieter: Even though Superfetch always utilizes low-priority I/O for its memory population in order to avoid interfering with foreground activity, we found that many users get annoyed at hearing the disk activity and seeing the disk light blink. In Windows7, Superfetch is a lot more respectful of user presence.

(2) Be more selective: In Windows7, Superfetch still populates the OS cache with frequently-accessed data from the disk and prioritizes RAM contents, but the underlying algorithms have been improved over Vista. As a result, Superfetch now typically prefetches a smaller, but more relevant volume of data from the disk and prioritizes memory more effectively.

Overall, our results (from a number of users over weeks) indicate that disk activity due to Superfetch is significantly lower in Windows7 compared to Vista while system responsiveness is much improved due to fewer hard page faults from the pagefile and other files.

There is no way to make Windows7 Superfetch bahave like its Vista predecessor.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
12 Aug 2009   #17
EarlZ

Windows 7 Ultimate X64 RTM
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by darkassain View Post
i dont understand why this has to do with caching files (avi and the like)...



as you can read there are several articles explaining this...

Windows Vista I/O technologies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Windows Administration: Inside the Windows Vista Kernel: Part 2



in short it only caches data and code that is necessary for the application to launch and nothing more...
there should be no avi or torrent files being cached....



from the guy himself
Mark's Blog : Pushing the Limits of Windows: Physical Memory
If you believe in all of those I would presume that you have never used vista or never observed on how superfetch worked.

The I/O priority is true to some extent, personally I didnt notice my system respond any faster with superfetch off ( disabled service , cleared prefetch folder ) like what other users say that it degrades system performance so i left it running. Some believe that superfetch slows down the system.


Superfetch loads ANYTHING that is used even if it was just launched once, forget about the "commonly used part"

All of the above is for windows VISTA.

For Win7 , I am aware that they reworked the code so that it only caches the most important files. But it has a downside to it though, my Sims3 (and over a dozen other apps/games ) loads significantly slower as compared to vista its taking almost 2x the amount of time because 7 does not cache the game files anymore while vista cached EVERYTHING ( including junk ) so its a trade off, two steps forward and one step back.

This is all based on actual usage and application , this is not theory crafting.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
12 Aug 2009   #18
Brink

64-bit Windows 10 Pro
 
 

warning   Warning
Thread cleaned up. Let's keep this off topic fanboy conversation and insults out, and stick to the OP's question.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
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