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Windows 7: Periodic freezes in my system

07 Oct 2009   #51
cesm23

Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit SP1
 
 

Yeah but you tested that at midnight exactly ? Try for example hearing a music in winamp and moving the mouse at 23:59:55 and see if when the clock changes from 23:59:59 to 00:00:00 you notice a 1s freeze in the mouse cursor and a stutter in the sound.
Anyway as soon as i uninstalled kaspersky 2010 i noticed a HUGE improvement in the speed when switching windows, that's for sure, and even when opening pages in the browser is a LOT faster now...


My System SpecsSystem Spec
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07 Oct 2009   #52
voirin

W7 Ultimate 64-bit (build 7601)
 
 

Ok I'll check it out on my system tonight (3 hrs time), and include winamp in the testing.

One point about KIS 2010: I did make a post on the Kaspersky forum about w7 support. They told me that no official support is given at this point. There will be some kind of 'download' available around 22nd October for w7 users, and that's when support kicks off. It might address your issue, but I'm uncertain on that point.

I do however notice stuttering in winamp under w7 (as you do), from time to time. This doesn't occur under xp. If we are only talking about 1sec freezes, then I might have what you have. I thought you were talking about longer freeze duration times. Sorry, but I haven't read this entire thread. Anyways, I'll get back to you.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
07 Oct 2009   #53
H2SO4

Win7x64
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by cesm23 View Post
jeez the midnight freeze is COMPLETLY gone! I have uninstalled kaspersky and there is absolutly no freeze! Do i still need to send the minidump too ? Maybe not, i am sending the log only.
Nifty

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by cesm23 View Post
edit : jeez OF COURSE the hourly dropped frames continue exactly like before,...
By the way i think i found a pattern of what happens in the time there is the 1 dropped frame... if you check the "driver delay" section, in the time i get the dropped frame there is several driver entrys in that section...
Hmmm.

Can you test what happens to the hourly freeze with the VSS service disabled (volume shadow copy)? There's a possibility that the periodic "quiescing" done by VSS components for the purposes of generating and maintaining volume snapshots is enough to manifest itself as a dropped frame or two in your time-sensitive video tools.

VSS is enabled by default on Vista and Win 7. Standalone XP machines didn't have VSS at all. Hence, it would be useful to rule out that complex mechanism.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
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07 Oct 2009   #54
H2SO4

Win7x64
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by torrentg View Post
That was rather excellent, H2SO4.
Thanks mate

It's the excellent tools that make it possible to do deterministic troubleshooting. I really think Xperf is one of the most under-rated and under-utilised tools for in-depth analysis. The entire Windows ETW framework that it relies on is just pure tech magic.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
07 Oct 2009   #55
Creer

Windows 7 Home Premium x32 SP1
 
 

If problems still occur, try to check your memory by this software:
Memtest86.com - Memory Diagnostic
My System SpecsSystem Spec
07 Oct 2009   #56
cesm23

Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit SP1
 
 

Quote:
Can you test what happens to the hourly freeze with the VSS service disabled (volume shadow copy)? There's a possibility that the periodic "quiescing" done by VSS components for the purposes of generating and maintaining volume snapshots is enough to manifest itself as a dropped frame or two in your time-sensitive video tools.

VSS is enabled by default on Vista and Win 7. Standalone XP machines didn't have VSS at all. Hence, it would be useful to rule out that complex mechanism.
Hum... as you can see in the screenshot i send in attachment, this was already deactivated, i don't remember if this is one of the few services i de-activated some weeks ago when i was tried to prevent the dropped frames, but i don't remember touching this one... Anyway it was always like this during these hourly freezes.

Ok i have done about 6 hourly freezes traces today, and there is a few conclusions i noticed :
- in all traces i could notice that every hour, precisely when it reaches one hour in the uptime, there is always that big pile of drivers in the driver delays section of the trace. And that's always precisely where these dropped frames happen

- another interesting conclusion is that very rarely, in this case in two of the times i made the traces, even tough there was the pile in there, there was no dropped frames at all. BUT last time i did the trace, there was 2 dropped frames this time, which is quite rare, usually 1 dropped frames happen most of the time, rarely none gets dropped, and even more rarely 2 or more get dropped

- as you can see in the 6 screenshots i send of the driver delays, i think i am unable to find a pattern that justifies the dropped frames, altough to me it's a big coincidence that it's ALWAYS precisely at this point that those 1-2 dropped frames use to happen, i never get them when the uptime doesn't reach that hourly pattern (usually when i get, it's clearly for other factors because i lose a LOT more than 1-2 frames).

- in some of the traces i think detected some unsual activity in amdk8.sys in some of these hourly freezes and also i notice that the cpu activity very quickly drops to zero during the precise time of the hourly freeze, anyway i will analize this better when i have more time

Maybe the problem isn't those drivers in the driver delays section, but anyway if it is don't you have idea in how can we change settings for those driver delays ? I am starting to get tired of this, next time i do a clean install i will try disabling ALL windows services i can... lol

Quote:
If problems still occur, try to check your memory by this software:
Memtest86.com - Memory Diagnostic
Hum... this probably isn't the problem since this only happens in windows vista and windows 7...


Attached Files
File Type: rar screens of 6 hourly freezes.rar (439.5 KB, 13 views)
My System SpecsSystem Spec
07 Oct 2009   #57
voirin

W7 Ultimate 64-bit (build 7601)
 
 

Ok, I tested as you suggested:

Quote:
moving the mouse at 23:59:55 and see if when the clock changes from 23:59:59 to 00:00:00 you notice a 1s freeze in the mouse cursor and a stutter in the sound
My system ran smooth. My freezes are mostly related to when I run an install in the background and try to perform stuff in foreground. e.g. installation of Office 2007 kept CPU close to 100% and therefore had massive lag/freeze in foreground. I do however get occasional glitches from winamp and the occasional mini freeze for no apparent reason, but i havent really investigated whether there is any mathematical periodicity to these small freezes.

I'll append to this thread if I do notice any similar anomolies. I might uninstall KIS and see if performance is better - maybe later in the week.

Cheers.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
07 Oct 2009   #58
H2SO4

Win7x64
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by cesm23 View Post
Hum... as you can see in the screenshot i send in attachment, this was already deactivated,
Manual start doesn't mean a service is disabled. Anyway, I think I discovered something new, so we can probably park aside the VSS idea for now...

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by cesm23 View Post
Ok i have done about 6 hourly freezes traces today, and there is a few conclusions i noticed :
- in all traces i could notice that every hour, precisely when it reaches one hour in the uptime, there is always that big pile of drivers in the driver delays section of the trace. And that's always precisely where these dropped frames happen
Great work mate. That helps me to help you. This is going to get a little esoteric, but I'm including it since you seem interested in the mechanics.

The attached drvSlow.txt shows all driver delays in excess of 100ms from your "hourly" ETL. The first few obviously correspond to writing some sort of Live Messenger contacts database stored under your profile, but it's the block starting at time offset 16473581us which is interesting - that's the "driver delay" events you've illustrated in your screen caps.

Note the "Ma" (Major) function number column. In the (irrelevant) "edbtmp.log" delays, the "major function" index is 4. For the block of delays we're interested in, the major function is always 14. Those numbers have somewhat standardised meanings. From a similar machine:

kd> !drvobj 823e2200 3
Driver object (823e2200) is for:
\Driver\PartMgr
...
Dispatch routines:
[00] IRP_MJ_CREATE f89224af PartMgr!PmPassThrough
[01] IRP_MJ_CREATE_NAMED_PIPE f89224af PartMgr!PmPassThrough
[02] IRP_MJ_CLOSE f89224af PartMgr!PmPassThrough
[03] IRP_MJ_READ f8922300 PartMgr!PmReadWrite
[04] IRP_MJ_WRITE f8922300 PartMgr!PmReadWrite
...
[14] IRP_MJ_QUERY_SECURITY f89224af PartMgr!PmPassThrough
...

In other words, once per hour of uptime, your machine's drivers involved in volume/partition management (partmgr, snapman, tdrpm228 [Acronis?], classpnp) are seemingly sent an IRP_MJ_QUERY_SECURITY instruction. For reasons that I can only guess at presently, it takes them over 100ms to complete that request, and in the meantime your video encoder is apparently unable to do its processing.

Since this happens to you on a brand new install, we could assume that the hourly command is normal (dangerous assumption!), but perhaps there is something about your machine's disk and/or disk subsystem that slows down the command's processing.

QUESTION: Have you ever reinstalled from scratch without any involvement from Acronis and its tdrpm228.sys driver? Please be quite certain about the response to this one

IRP_MJ_QUERY_SECURITY is what's called an "I/O Request Packet" (IRP). Without getting into too much detail, IRPs get passed around from one driver to another in a strict hierarchy governed by their function. There's a possibility that what we're looking at is a single IRP which is being passed down through the I/O stack until it hits the Acronis driver - which is for some reason slower to act than it should be. If that's the case, the symptom would appear to affect the entire disk partition I/O driver hierarchy above it, because they're all waiting on each other in turn to process the IRP.

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by cesm23 View Post
- in some of the traces i think detected some unsual activity in amdk8.sys in some of these hourly freezes and also i notice that the cpu activity very quickly drops to zero during the precise time of the hourly freeze,
That's probably just a side-effect. The "idle loop" function that the processor is in when it hasn't got anything else to do is in the amdk8.sys driver. Another angle: the OS is stuck elsewhere and the processor is briefly idling.


Attached Files
File Type: txt drvSlow.txt (4.4 KB, 41 views)
My System SpecsSystem Spec
07 Oct 2009   #59
cesm23

Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit SP1
 
 

wow... jeez this is really going too far i never knew you knew SUCH advanced stuff, hopefully all this info will also help others diagnose such kind of problems too

Yes indeed i ALWAYS use Acronis True image as soon as i finish installing any windows at all, and i think that the only time i tested the tv captures in a "clean" windows 7 install yes i had acronis true image already installed...

So what you suggest is to me uninstall acronis true image to see if this problem still happens ?

Sorry it was my fault when i said it was a clean install of windows, but i never tought that this could be the problem, because in windows xp i never had this problem and i always used acronis true image in windows xp.

No but WAIT A minute... wait now i remember that shortly before i updated to windows 7, i remember i downloaded a more recent version of acronis true image (more exactly acronis TrueImage 2009 9796, and before i was using Acronis TrueImage 2009 en 9788) because i was afraid of the older version i was using being incompatible with windows 7. For now lets see if the hourly freeze still happens with acronis true image uninstalled, that's what you suggest, right ? I am going to try this right away to save time while you don't reply.

Quote:
my system ran smooth. My freezes are mostly related to when I run an install in the background and try to perform stuff in foreground. e.g. installation of Office 2007 kept CPU close to 100% and therefore had massive lag/freeze in foreground. I do however get occasional glitches from winamp and the occasional mini freeze for no apparent reason, but i havent really investigated whether there is any mathematical periodicity to these small freezes.

I'll append to this thread if I do notice any similar anomolies. I might uninstall KIS and see if performance is better - maybe later in the week.

Cheers.
Well... it's not surprising, you probably used another version of KIS or this depends of the cpu speed and type of cpu and motherboard... Which version of KIS you use ? The one i use is kis2010.0.0.463en.exe and by the way i use it in trial mode.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
07 Oct 2009   #60
H2SO4

Win7x64
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by cesm23 View Post
So what you suggest is to me uninstall acronis true image to see if this problem still happens ?
Yes please.

I am say 75% confident that the behaviour will look different without the Acronis drivers, though I don't have any means of predicting (from this info alone) whether the hourly freeze will be completely gone, or whether the IRP will simply appear to freeze with another driver in the chain.

Let's see what happens without Acronis in the picture.
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