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Windows 7: Periodic freezes in my system

07 Oct 2009   #61
cesm23

Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit SP1
 
 

I knew it would be too good to be truth, the dropped frame still happened even tough i completly deinstalled acronis true image and rebooted. I have checked the trace and now the driver delays looks a bit different...

MEGAUPLOAD - The leading online storage and file delivery service

Please analyze this one, see if there is still any acronis driver in there... this is amazing, i am starting to be afraid this won't be ever solved


My System SpecsSystem Spec
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07 Oct 2009   #62
H2SO4

Win7x64
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by cesm23 View Post
I knew it would be too good to be truth, the dropped frame still happened even tough i completly deinstalled acronis true image and rebooted. I have checked the trace and now the driver delays looks a bit different...

MEGAUPLOAD - The leading online storage and file delivery service

Please analyze this one, see if there is still any acronis driver in there... this is amazing, i am starting to be afraid this won't be ever solved
Too bad. That driver delay block just after 33.5sec - is that where you reckon you lost frames?
My System SpecsSystem Spec
07 Oct 2009   #63
cesm23

Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit SP1
 
 

yes i think so, because i started the trace about 30 seconds before uptime reached another hour, and usually the dropped frame happens 1-2 segunds after the uptime reaches another hour.

update : well if you can't find anything else in the driver delays section... maybe it's possible to find in the other sections i hope... because i think that the LAST thing we should check is the tv capture card drivers themselfs being the cause of the dropped frames, i can't even think about that possibility... No but wait a minute... that gaved me an idea, i will check if that drop in the cpu activity also happens when there is no dropped frames and also if it also happens if there is no tv capture. If it DOES happen, that's good because i will be able to make the test WITHOUT the capture card installed, this way i can see if the problem is the tv capture card's drivers/card or not.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
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07 Oct 2009   #64
H2SO4

Win7x64
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by cesm23 View Post
update : well if you can't find anything else in the driver delays section... maybe it's possible to find in the other sections i hope...
Sorry, been a bit busy. The wife is interfering with my quality internet time.

It does seem very likely that the video utility's drop in processor usage is linked to those "delayed" IRPs (see attachment). The pattern is becoming easier to recognise, if not to understand. With the Acronis drivers gone, these two now "own" the IRP(s) at the point where they fail to be processed for over 100ms:

ClassPnP: plug-n-play enumerator for the storage drivers (disk.sys).
PartMgr: partition manager, notifies PnP of the existence of partitions.

Based on that, to me it looks like the activity is related to some sort of periodic attempt to enumerate disk partitions. The trouble is that even Xperf can't log everything that happens on the system, so we don't know why the IRPs are slow to be processed.

Further troubleshooting along these lines would require either DDK/driver verifier components (fiddly), or even a direct-attach kernel debugger (extremely complex), and both options are simply impractical over a web forum. Therefore, we shall have to think instead...

  • What type of disk are we talking about here?
  • Does it matter which disk the video files are stored on?
  • What if you use a USB stick or a USB drive as the storage medium for the videos?
It all looks rather disk-oriented right now, though in a software sense.


Attached Files
File Type: txt drvSlow2.txt (1.6 KB, 11 views)
My System SpecsSystem Spec
08 Oct 2009   #65
cesm23

Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit SP1
 
 

Oh my god i can't believe it FINALLY for the first time ever i got 3 tests in a row without a dropped frame in the hourly change! All i had to do... was to capture in a usb HDD ! BUT we have to solve this because this usb hdd is NOT mine, i just have it borrowed so i really hope it's possible to fix this, since i only have usb sticks of my own and of course they aren't fast enought to keep up with tv captures.
[*]What type of disk are we talking about here?

Well when i used windows xp i noticed that everytime that i captured on sata hdd drives there was always 1 dropped frame sometimes, but at the time i didn't know about this thing of the uptime so i never noticed which was the pattern. So i started using only IDE drives to capture and the problem was gone. That is, until i moved to windows vista or windows seven, here capturing in ide or sata don't make a difference, now that i know about this problem i think this was very probably the same problem i had in windows xp when capturing in sata drives, only that in windows vista and seven, it also happens on ide drives too. So most of the tests i did on windows seven was in the IDE drive but there was one time i told you i tested without anything more connected to the computer (remember, when i said i disconected the cdrom, all other hdd drives, etc) and in that case i did the tv capture in the secondary sata2 drive but the problem still happened.
[*]Does it matter which disk the video files are stored on?
I already replyed this one above.
[*]What if you use a USB stick or a USB drive as the storage medium for the videos?
YEAH that really worked, i now used a borrowed usb HDD and for the third time i do a test it doesn't drop that framer anymore, i never tough this would actually work since i once tried the tv capture in a ramdrive (but that was several days ago, not recently) and the dropped frame still happened BUT maybe it's because i am not using kaspersky and acronis true image at the moment... Anyway i still need to make a few more tests in this drive to be absolutly sure that the dropped frames stopped, because sometimes it's normal that there isn't any dropped, but 3 times in one day without dropped frames at that time actually never happened before Heres the trace of the latest one i did (the third one) see if you notice something different here.

MEGAUPLOAD - The leading online storage and file delivery service

edit : another test, now i did on the 250gb sata2 hdd, and of course there was dropped frames in that time, this time 3 dropped frames. It's like i say this seems to only happen in internal hdd's...

final edit for today : this time i tested again in the usb HDD and AGAIN no dropped frame! Now it's for sure, the problem is clearly in a internal hdd capture, either if it's sata or ide.

next day : before i went to sleep i did a 3 hour capture, and again there wasn't any dropped frame at the next hourly cycle BUT there was 6 dropped frames at 01:23:33, exactly like before! This is amazing, real amazing... But that's not my main concern, the most important one is the dropped frames hourly that now don't happen anymore but only in the usb hdd.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
09 Oct 2009   #66
H2SO4

Win7x64
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by cesm23 View Post
Oh my god i can't believe it FINALLY for the first time ever i got 3 tests in a row without a dropped frame in the hourly change! All i had to do... was to capture in a usb HDD !
Great! Glad to hear it

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by cesm23 View Post
BUT we have to solve this because this usb hdd is NOT mine, i just have it borrowed so i really hope it's possible to fix this, since i only have usb sticks of my own and of course they aren't fast enought to keep up with tv captures.
I should probably do some "expectation adjustment" as they call it in marketing. "Solving" this may not be practical. Even Xperf doesn't contain sufficient info to explain why those disk-bound IRPs are sometimes slow to process. To understand that, I'd need your machine on the desk beside me, with another PC running a kernel debugger and thus "controlling" the operation of your OS so that it could be examined in minute detail. Not only am I not in Portugal, though I'd love to visit(), but this part of the OS is not my forte. It can sometimes take days to understand something like this on a code level, and if it turns out to be a hardware glitch or a software bug - there's nothing we can do about it anyway.

Having now hopefully lowered your sights, I'd like to point out that you've got a very decent workaround. Do without Kaspersky to remain freeze-free at midnight, and buy yourself a USB enclosure for your SATA scratch drive. Not the most elegant solution perhaps, but one which should cost all of $20 if you shop around.

Comments?
My System SpecsSystem Spec
09 Oct 2009   #67
cesm23

Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit SP1
 
 

no no i won't need to do any of that anymore, i FINALLY found the solution, finally ! Well, i haven't found exactly a fix of the problem but rather a hidden option in the tv capture drivers that is able to "absorve" the delay that happens hourly and EVEN the one that happens in 01:23:33 of capture... Check the attached screenshot, probably only those that understand about tv captures knows what this is, but this is one of the default microsoft dialogs for tv captures, and amazingly the option "none(buffered)" in the "interleaving" section worked for this, it seems this creates a kind of buffer so that when there is a delay it will prevent dropped frames. During all these months i only used "none" all the time since it's the default setting that the tv capture drivers has, anyways i had to test these options for myself because i found no documentation of any of these options ANYWHERE at all not even in google.

I remember i tested some of these settings in windows xp before but since i haven't had much problems with dropped frames in windows xp they had almost no effect. But now to my big surprise this actually worked EVEN in the sata2 drive ! (at least the 250gb hitach one). I tested in both the IDE hdd and the sata2 250gb hitachi hdd sata. I tested this about 4-5 times and got no dropped frames ever BUT to my surprise i got some dropped frames when i captured in the windows partition, probably this is related to those operations that happen in the hourly delay, since those drivers are on that partition, but that's ok i don't need to capture in the windows hdd anyway.

Anyways still all the trouble we had in the topic was worth it, now i know how to diagnose dropped frames next time they happen And also i hope this helps other people too


Attached Images
Periodic freezes in my system-scr20091009_2004_-12_properties.jpg 
My System SpecsSystem Spec
09 Oct 2009   #68
H2SO4

Win7x64
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by cesm23 View Post
Anyways still all the trouble we had in the topic was worth it, now i know how to diagnose dropped frames next time they happen And also i hope this helps other people too
Great! Glad to hear you've found a way to get the capture utility to be more tolerant of the hourly slow-downs.

I can't help wondering whether your hardware is perhaps just a little underpowered for the sort of work you're doing, to the point where the increased footprint of Vista/W7 (over XP) was the straw that broke the camel's back. The machine I'm sitting on doesn't exhibit those ~150ms classpnp/partmgr IRP delays, so my inclination is to think that your specific hardware is somehow linked.

Thanks for hosting a fun problem to troubleshoot
My System SpecsSystem Spec
10 Oct 2009   #69
cesm23

Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit SP1
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by H2SO4 View Post
Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by cesm23 View Post
Anyways still all the trouble we had in the topic was worth it, now i know how to diagnose dropped frames next time they happen And also i hope this helps other people too
Great! Glad to hear you've found a way to get the capture utility to be more tolerant of the hourly slow-downs.

I can't help wondering whether your hardware is perhaps just a little underpowered for the sort of work you're doing, to the point where the increased footprint of Vista/W7 (over XP) was the straw that broke the camel's back. The machine I'm sitting on doesn't exhibit those ~150ms classpnp/partmgr IRP delays, so my inclination is to think that your specific hardware is somehow linked.

Thanks for hosting a fun problem to troubleshoot
Yes indeed i find it strange too, but what you recommend me to do? I think nothing else can be done about these delays right? Perhaps it's better let it like they are, i already lost a lot of time (and patience) on this
My System SpecsSystem Spec
10 Oct 2009   #70
H2SO4

Win7x64
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by cesm23 View Post
Yes indeed i find it strange too, but what you recommend me to do? I think nothing else can be done about these delays right? Perhaps it's better let it like they are, i already lost a lot of time (and patience) on this
Oh, without doubt, the best thing to do is to use that "buffering" option in the capture app. You don't seem to experience any other issues, so the fact that once per hour a couple of IRPs take a few hundred milliseconds longer to process than strictly normal is entirely unimportant - once the buffering workaround is implemented.

Enjoy your video capturing without dropped frames.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
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