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Windows 7: Pagefile.sys

15 Aug 2011   #151
smarteyeball

 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Cr00zng View Post
Nor did I advocate disabling the page file.
True.

Quote:
Demanding to leave the page file enabled
That wasn't a demand - that was the voice of common sense


Quote:
and calling people names (implied or otherwise) who does not comply is, well silly...
One could say that if one were inclined - luckily for me, I'm not that inclined


In all seriousness though - the ultimate object of the exercise is to try to separate fact from fiction so that anyone who stumbles across this thread in the future can decide for themselves.

What's good for the goose is not always good for the gander. We're just trying to avoid J.Citizen from seeing a post "Disable Pagefile = Good" and them following suit only to discover that app x,y or z that the goose does not use suddenly stops working properly for the gander.

Forewarned is forearmed. Not everyone is savvy enough discern the causality between 'disable A = Error A".

(Especially 'mass changes in one sitting' tinkering. That never ends well )


My System SpecsSystem Spec
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15 Aug 2011   #152
pallesenw

Windows
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Cr00zng View Post
Anyone knows why Windows keep "paging" if there's no pagefile? Unless it uses the "cashed memory" for this purpose, but shouldn't it show writes as well?
Other things generate page faults. Memory mapped files. Your exe and dll files will be memory mapped when executed. So if you launch an application then you will see them.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
16 Aug 2011   #153
Cr00zng

Windows 7 64-bit, Windows 8.1 64-bit, OSX El Capitan, Windows 10 (VMware)
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by smarteyeball View Post
In all seriousness though - the ultimate object of the exercise is to try to separate fact from fiction so that anyone who stumbles across this thread in the future can decide for themselves.

What's good for the goose is not always good for the gander. We're just trying to avoid J.Citizen from seeing a post "Disable Pagefile = Good" and them following suit only to discover that app x,y or z that the goose does not use suddenly stops working properly for the gander.

Forewarned is forearmed. Not everyone is savvy enough discern the causality between 'disable A = Error A".

(Especially 'mass changes in one sitting' tinkering. That never ends well )
In another word, it's quite alright to disable the page file if one can do some algebra; you've just stated nicer than I did ...

People who venture to make mass tinkering with the system tends to be savvy enough to reverse the changes. The masses on the other hand wouldn't even know what the page file is, much less changing it. From this perspective, this is pretty much a techy, or wanna be techy discussion on the subject at hand...
My System SpecsSystem Spec
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16 Aug 2011   #154
Cr00zng

Windows 7 64-bit, Windows 8.1 64-bit, OSX El Capitan, Windows 10 (VMware)
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by pallesenw View Post
Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Cr00zng View Post
Anyone knows why Windows keep "paging" if there's no pagefile? Unless it uses the "cashed memory" for this purpose, but shouldn't it show writes as well?
Other things generate page faults. Memory mapped files. Your exe and dll files will be memory mapped when executed. So if you launch an application then you will see them.
So, it is actually page fault when the program loads into the memory. The page counter in itself is writing/moving program from the memory to the disk, right?
My System SpecsSystem Spec
16 Aug 2011   #155
Digerati

Windows 7 Profession 64-bit
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Cr00zng
Nor did I advocate disabling the page file.
Oh?
Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Cr00zng
Running with no paging file on a large system is fine

In another word, it's quite alright to disable the page file if one can do some algebra
It is a pretty thin, and very fuzzy line between "nor did I advocate disabling" and "it's quite alright to disable".

But in any case, you are wrong! NOTHING presented thus far says running without a page file is fine, and there is NOTHING that says it is alright to disable the page file. So now, I am challenging you, Cr00zng. Show us one, just one link to one white paper, research report, a review site, a RAM maker!!!!, any one, just one link that backs up your TOTALLY UNFOUNDED claims.

You guys are NOTHING but anonymous names on a forum making illogical leaps to conclusions based on ZERO, none, nil evidence to support your FALSE claims. You have failed to find even one expert to back you up. Not one.

GET REAL PEOPLE! Not needed does NOT mean disable. And not needed during 5 minutes of casual, unscientific observation (no actual measuring or benchmarking) is NOT a valid test, and certainly such an observation on this machine is no indication of what should be on that machine.

If you think otherwise - SHOWS US - stop just flapping your gums! SHOW US!!!! This is a technical forum and you have presented zero technical facts that defend your position. None!

Conversely, several of us have provided many links to reputable sources that say YOU ARE WRONG. Want another?

Windows 7 Inside Out by Ed Bott, Carl Siechert, Craig Stinson, Copyright 2010, Page 743,

Quote:
Page File Confusion

By far the most common instances of performance-related misinformation revolve around the subject of page files, sometimes incorrectly called swap files. We routinely run across two widely published myths about the proper configuration of virtual memory in Windows:

Myth #1: If your computer has a large amount of memory installed, you should eliminate your page file completely. This is bad advice. Although you can configure Windows so that it does not set aside any virtual memory, no reputable source has ever published benchmarks establishing any performance gains from doing so, and Windows simply wasn't designed to run without a page file.

Myth #2: Creating a page file of a fixed size improves performance. This is also potentially bad advice. On 1990s-vintage hardware, dynamically resizing the swap file caused noticeable delays in system response and also resulted in excessive fragmentation. The memory management subsystems in modern Windows versions have been tuned to minimize the likelihood of performance problems
Key points Ed makes about disabling the page file:
  • This is bad advice.
  • No reputable source has ever published benchmarks establishing any performance gains from doing so
  • Windows simply wasn't designed to run without a page file

Quote:
People who venture to make mass tinkering with the system tends to be savvy enough to reverse the changes.
Yeah, right!
My System SpecsSystem Spec
16 Aug 2011   #156
medeiom

Windows 7
 
 

Look, the whole point here is Pagefile is needed when Ram is limited and in case you run out of Ram, virtual memory kicks in. Right? Well, If you have well over 8GB and ALL your programs do not take up more than let's say 5GB....than what's the point of having a Pagefile????

I am proof, with my VMware server, VirtualBox with Ubuntu, OpenOffice, Firefox with 10+ tabs, Chrome, IE9, PCTools running a scan, Lenovo updates going and security webcam....ALL of these apps running with Win7's Resource Monitor app open and verifying only 4.5GB used up. The other 3.5 is free or in standby in case more Ram is required.
You want me to write a paper on that? You want me to post a YouTube video to prove that?

Obviously there's no paper AS OF YET to suggest that Pagefile will eventually be a thing of the past. But mark my words it will happen and as we progress with Technology and we will find a way to accomplish that.

There's no question by setting a Pagefile it increases disk activity BUT it does slow performance, especially on an SSD. That was the original question before this huge debate and the question was "Should I set a Pagefile on an SSD?" My answer was no simply because based on my specs (read my very first post) I don't believe you need Pagefile on SSD running 64bit with a large sum of Ram.

However, do what you feel is necessary to accomplish your needs. Good day, good night and thank you!
My System SpecsSystem Spec
16 Aug 2011   #157
medeiom

Windows 7
 
 

Seriously, flap your gums all YOU want but the reality is I have no Pagefile on my SSD and everything works for me. It works for ME! So I must be doing something right.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
16 Aug 2011   #158
Digerati

Windows 7 Profession 64-bit
 
 

Quote:
I am proof
No you're not. You are nobody. You are just some anonymous poster on a website, making a bunch of unsubstantiated claims expecting everyone to automatically believe you - in spite of the fact there have been more than a dozen recognized experts here at SevenForums, and posted links to multiple reliable sources across the Internet - ALL OF WHOM say you are WRONG!

Quote:
There's no question by setting a Pagefile it increases disk activity BUT it does slow performance, especially on an SSD.
NO! When you tried to slip that by us before, I showed where the SSD makers YOU MENTIONED don't agree with you.

STOP MAKING FALSE CLAIMS YOU CANNOT DEFEND!

Steven Sinofsky, President, Microsoft Windows and Windows Live Division, from his blog, Support and Q&A for Solid-State Drives - Engineering Windows 7 reports,
Quote:
Should the pagefile be placed on SSDs?

Yes. Most pagefile operations are small random reads or larger sequential writes, both of which are types of operations that SSDs handle well.

In looking at telemetry data from thousands of traces and focusing on pagefile reads and writes, we find that
•Pagefile.sys reads outnumber pagefile.sys writes by about 40 to 1,
•Pagefile.sys read sizes are typically quite small, with 67% less than or equal to 4 KB, and 88% less than 16 KB.
•Pagefile.sys writes are relatively large, with 62% greater than or equal to 128 KB and 45% being exactly 1 MB in size.
In fact, given typical pagefile reference patterns and the favorable performance characteristics SSDs have on those patterns, there are few files better than the pagefile to place on an SSD.
Quote:
Seriously, flap your gums all YOU want but the reality is I have no Pagefile on my SSD and everything works for me. It works for ME! So I must be doing something right.
It just means it did not break - it does not mean it is the correct thing to do. And it certainly does not mean you should be advising others to follow you.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
16 Aug 2011   #159
Cr00zng

Windows 7 64-bit, Windows 8.1 64-bit, OSX El Capitan, Windows 10 (VMware)
 
 

Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Digerati View Post
Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Cr00zng
Nor did I advocate disabling the page file.
Oh?
Quote   Quote: Originally Posted by Cr00zng
Running with no paging file on a large system is fine

In another word, it's quite alright to disable the page file if one can do some algebra
It is a pretty thin, and very fuzzy line between "nor did I advocate disabling" and "it's quite alright to disable".
That was a response/agreement to the comment by Smarteye... Your other selective quotes takes my postings out of context.

The fact remains that machine with extended size of memory can run without the pagefile just fine in certain cases that depends on the hardware/software mix at hand. Is that advisable for everyone? No...

Advising these people to turn on the pagefile is pretty much useless, why should they listen? It's not like the expert has never been wrong, right?

People drawing conclusion from forum postings, make changes to their machines without understanding the impact of the change; they deserve it, if they break their machine and cannot fix it.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
16 Aug 2011   #160
Digerati

Windows 7 Profession 64-bit
 
 

Quote:
People drawing conclusion from forum postings, make changes to their machines without understanding the impact of the change; they deserve it, if they break their machine and cannot fix it.
They deserve it??? Oh wow!

Not on my watch! If someone comes to this forum, or any other forum I "work", seeking technical advice, they deserve quality, truthful advice based on substantiated facts and established standards!

But to your comment - you prove my point. So where are your links to "reliable sources"? Do I need to keep adding more and more? You've provided none!

I am a nobody (though not an anonymous nobody) and I still provided multiple links to substantiate my facts. You've provided nothing.

If I see anyone telling one of our posters to disable their page file, I will be all over it just as I have been all over it in this thread.

People come here to get advise because computers are more than just another household appliance. Repair shops are expensive and sadly, not all are reputable. Our job is to help and teach these folks to have a safe and enjoyable computing experience.

Quote:
The fact remains that machine with extended size of memory can run without the pagefile just fine
Not the point!

Does it run better without a page file?
No! No reputable source has ever published benchmarks establishing any performance gains deleting the page file.

Is there any advantage to disabling the page file?
No! There is no documented evidence to suggest there is any advantage to disabling the page file.

Are there any downsides to disabling the page file?
Yes! There is much documented evidence that shows disabling the PF affects memory dumps and some programs.
My System SpecsSystem Spec
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