Encrypt/secure files on external HDD?

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  1. Posts : 58
    10
       #11

    OK i did skim over the thread initially because i was busy at the time, I see what you are trying to achieve now. There is no real way i can think of to achieve what you are wanting. There was a program called securom that is now defunct.

    Depending on the Data type then you could look at authoring that data in a way that makes it non editable. Eg like taking a photo of documents instead of sending the actual documents. PDF are also another option that until more recent times was usually used as it was harder to edit,
    eg i would send for example a resume as PDF because it means the person has to intentionally try to edit that format and also a bonus of that format means it can open in any browser so it makes accessibility easier to the recipient. You can take this sort of logic and apply it to other data. Many generic users would not even know you can edit a PDF for example.

    You can also use in some cases encrypted rar files so that they person can view the data but cannot edit it because you never gave them the key.

    It all depends on the data at this point Just look at the Data you have and see if there is ways to present that data in other forms which allow in a way to make them non editable.

    If we are talking about gb or tb of data then ditto you are out of luck. I think also if you are sharing data with someone then you are also giving that right away, at that point the question asks why are you so concerned about them not editing anything?
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  2. Posts : 101
    Windows 7, 64bit pro
    Thread Starter
       #12

    Malneb said:
    why are you so concerned about them not editing anything?
    because its my stuff, you know.. pretty simple
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  3. Posts : 58
    10
       #13

    mulambo said:
    because its my stuff, you know.. pretty simple
    Sure but that is not conductive to actually protecting data to just say "its my data simple". The paradigm is this, either protecting data where its about keeping other people away from that data which is why why use encryption. Which means in turn its already a given if you allow someone to said data then that means you trust that person with said data 100%.

    Permissions in computers since UNIX state a clear paradigm which is on a basic level and also a POSIX standard and further in another method called ACL which is a system derived from the earlier system and is loosely speced around POSIX.

    Basic example

    r = read
    w = write
    x = execute

    You give or deny any user, person or group any combination of those allowances. Or you encrypt entirely data where you want more robust measure of protection. There is no grey area and read access also means that the person can copy said data, they also need to be able to read to do any of the other features. So opening a document or viewing a picture or listening to a song is read permissions granted, which means they can copy that data.

    You let them read and execute but not write data, so they can still copy and read but they cannot alter data. Past that then ditto.

    So really you either give them access or you don't.
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  4. Posts : 101
    Windows 7, 64bit pro
    Thread Starter
       #14

    Malneb said:
    Sure but that is not conductive to actually protecting data to just say "its my data simple". The paradigm is this, either protecting data where its about keeping other people away from that data which is why why use encryption. Which means in turn its already a given if you allow someone to said data then that means you trust that person with said data 100%.

    Permissions in computers since UNIX state a clear paradigm which is on a basic level and also a POSIX standard and further in another method called ACL which is a system derived from the earlier system and is loosely speced around POSIX.

    Basic example

    r = read
    w = write
    x = execute

    You give or deny any user, person or group any combination of those allowances. Or you encrypt entirely data where you want more robust measure of protection. There is no grey area and read access also means that the person can copy said data, they also need to be able to read to do any of the other features. So opening a document or viewing a picture or listening to a song is read permissions granted, which means they can copy that data.

    You let them read and execute but not write data, so they can still copy and read but they cannot alter data. Past that then ditto.

    So really you either give them access or you don't.

    Logic doubt.
    Why "copy" = "read" ?
    Copying means duplicating.
    Example: you have a written exam to do. A colleague asks you to make him read your stuff. Then he entirely copies it and presents it as his stuff. The teacher gets upset and start doubting of both the real author (you) and the smartarse (your colleague).
    Hope that makes sense.
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  5. Posts : 58
    10
       #15

    Well copy is hard to define because its not strictly defined, it falls under a few different scenarios, technically you only need read permissions to copy data. But because most of the time data is wanting to be written then you need write permissions too.

    You can get around that hence technically you only need to be able to read data to copy it.

    The earlier example given is only per OS because the perms are set on any given OS. So if i had a file called A i could copy that file to computer B and computer B can do anything with it.

    This logic means i can copy data outside of the OS where i have full perms and then i can do anything i want with that data.

    the local permission example it was also only shown to you to show and elaborate more on that there is not simple way to do what you are wanting to do, you either give a third party access or you don't. Encryption is about protecting data from the very stuff i just mentioned, and even there is still stands you give them access or not.
    Example on a basic level a password protected zip, you give the password to certain ppl so that anyone else who comes across the zip file will not be able to access that data. You see here there is the exact same mantra of "You give them access or not"

    Its a catch 22 because you want to give someone the hard drive but the very act of doing that means you give them access to the data. There is no way to be in between because there is no grey area in the systems involved. You can encrypt the drive but that person needs to know the password. Else they cannot access the data and filesystem perms only pertain locally so you cannot to my knowledge change that.

    All roads lead to Rome which is you trust someone to data or not.
    Last edited by Malneb; 05 Aug 2024 at 02:40.
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  6. Posts : 2,489
    Windows 7 Ultimate x64
       #16

    mulambo said:
    Logic doubt.
    Why "copy" = "read" ?
    Copying means duplicating.
    In computers, when we say "read" what we actually refer to is to create a copy of the data from permanent storage, like a hard disk, to a temporary working location, like RAM. Then the CPU does calculations with it and outputs some result. The practical effect can be as to display an image on screen or dumping it to another file, or something completely different.

    But the initial step is the critical one. From HD to RAM. This is unavoidable and it's what puts data outside of your control. Even if you fully control the HD it came from, it doesn't matters, it's now data in RAM under that computer's control, and it can just display it (the good case) or put it into another file outside your control (the bad case). Both are totally possible and the direct result of giving read access to the files. Hence it implies that read permission is also permission to copy.

    What you're seeking is the exact problem DRM have attempted to solve, and while some obstacles were created, they all ultimate failed for a determined attacker. This is why piracy still exists and it's impossible to prevent from a technical level..
    Many multimillon dollar companies have tried to do what you're asking for.
    They ALL failed.
    Every single time.
    Music, movies, software, all is still pirated, copied without permission and plagarized, since centuries ago.
    Those companies learned to accept that they can sell a lot, but some will be still copied without permission. They try to minimize those, but ultimately cannot prevent it completely.

    What you can do is to manage your risk. Don't showcase your very best job, but a small portion of it, use watermarks, lower resolutions and the like. Minimize your losses should the worst happens.


    mulambo said:
    Example: you have a written exam to do. A colleague asks you to make him read your stuff. Then he entirely copies it and presents it as his stuff. The teacher gets upset and start doubting of both the real author (you) and the smartarse (your colleague).
    This is actually a very good example.Once your colleague reads your work, how can you prevent him from writing it somewhere else? Or saying it aloud from memory?
    He has your text in his head, so from that point on, he could really do anything with that, honest or not.
    The only possible way to prevent the risk is to not let him read you stuff.
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  7. Posts : 101
    Windows 7, 64bit pro
    Thread Starter
       #17

    Hence it implies that read permission is also permission to copy.
    Not at all.
    Read and copy are two different words by themselves, on the dictionary.
    If read = copy

    Then anybody who reads a book, can copy it and even sell it with his/her name on it?

    Come on. We're talking about honesty here.
    Computers are just built the dishonest way, that's what I'm assuming.
    Once your colleague reads your work, how can you prevent him from writing it somewhere else? Or saying it aloud from memory?
    With my knife, that's how, lol.
    Jokes aside, no. I get that computers are a simplified version of human intellect with varied results according to the wonders of artificiality. But we humans behave according to moral principles. Computers are given no morality (or are we just screwed too deep into computers so we have lost it, forgot about it?). That's how it is.

    Anyway this is a whole different discussion and I'm honestly getting tired of it.
    What remains is that, even in dictionaries, read and copy are different words.
    If one implies the other, it means who reads is a thief.

    read
    verb
    verb: read; 3rd person present: reads; past tense: read; past participle: read; gerund or present participle: reading
    /riːd/
    1.
    look at and comprehend the meaning of (written or printed matter) by interpreting the characters or symbols of which it is composed.
    "it's the best novel I've ever read"
    copy
    noun
    noun: copy; plural noun: copies
    1. a thing made to be similar or identical to another.

    verb
    verb: copy; 3rd person present: copies; past tense: copied; past participle: copied; gerund or present participle: copying

    1. make a similar or identical version of; reproduce.
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  8. Posts : 58
    10
       #18

    Data is not safe when its read only. You can see in this basic example that its possible to copy data from a read only file and then transfer it over to a new file. Sorry for the quality this computer is a peanut.

    This is a staggering issue because some files and formats are on a basic level have a degree of safeness to them by being read only but past that is shows that all data is subject to being copied if you know how. Some data needs more extreme methods to copy in this fashion.

    Like what i mean is that there is actually some formats that are kind of locked down in read only mode but as soon as you copy it away from its source its no longer just readable data.

    I just copied, wrote and duplicated data here.

    Last edited by Malneb; 28 Aug 2024 at 20:16.
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  9. Posts : 1,930
    Windows 7 pro
       #19

    mulambo said:
    Jokes aside, no. I get that computers are a simplified version of human intellect with varied results according to the wonders of artificiality. But we humans behave according to moral principles. Computers are given no morality (or are we just screwed too deep into computers so we have lost it, forgot about it?). That's how it is.

    Anyway this is a whole different discussion and I'm honestly getting tired of it.
    What remains is that, even in dictionaries, read and copy are different words.
    If one implies the other, it means who reads is a thief.
    Computers don't follow those standard definitions. Anyone that has read access has copy access and can bypass any other permissions on a different volume or even another file name. This isn't just Windows but also Mac and Linux. Windows actually has more complicated permissions than the other 2 systems but they don't prevent copying files. I did find a file server system that includes the ability to prohibit copying and if I'm reading the website correctly they sell usb drives with such protection. I don't know how much they cost or how hard they are to get or use. You might look into it. SecuData.co.uk - Real USB Security I can't help you any further than that.
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