Going to build a pc, the common question - i7 vs i5!

[bobafetthotmail]

I'd personally advise to find a cheapo used metal case (used oldish ones will cost you far less than wood) and glue the wood on that. You can find oldish small server tower cases that offer all space you will ever need. They will be all f-ugly, but if you glue wood on them it's irrelevant.

Be sure to check the CPU that it has all the VM-oriented features (they improve performance), as some don't.

 

[Music Guy123]

I'll think about the metal case thing. I might get te motherboard plate of the case and attach that. Dunno though! Some desiging to be done! And apparantly virtual box doesn't really make much use of the vm features. And I think the 3770k has the features anyway. Thanks very much for your input, much appreciated!

 

[Maguscreed]

I own both - a system with i5 and one with i7. Both run the OS from SSDs. None are OCd.

I find the i7 to be faster and more effective. I notice the difference especially when I do complex video encoding - and I suppose any other CPU bound tasks like CAD will have the same effect.

But don't get me wrong. The i5 is a fine processor and the K model can be OCd - if you want to go into that.

I will definitely +1 the video encoding, i7's devour encoding tasks.

 

[kbrady1979]

I own both - a system with i5 and one with i7. Both run the OS from SSDs. None are OCd.

I find the i7 to be faster and more effective. I notice the difference especially when I do complex video encoding - and I suppose any other CPU bound tasks like CAD will have the same effect.

But don't get me wrong. The i5 is a fine processor and the K model can be OCd - if you want to go into that.

I will definitely +1 the video encoding, i7's devour encoding tasks.

Any CPU with the HD4000 graphics will dominate encoding/decoding/transcoding because of the Quicksync 2 on the chip....I can't imagine how fast an i7 would finish that task!

 

[ICIT2LOL]

In fact, may as well ask this question here. I'm intending on building my pc case out of wood. Now, there are advantages and disadvantages, my main one is EMI/RF signals. Now, would i need to shield the case or should I just not worry about it and leave it? Also, how does one ground everything, would running earth wires from the mobo standoffs and the HDD casings to the psu case work? Thanks for the help so far everyone!

All the best,

Music

Hum when you say wood MG do you mean that MDF stuff or real wood. In any case (nice pun eh?) my main concern would (another one!!) be heat dissipation my friend as both wood and that MDF - or particle board is or are bad conductors of heat and we all know the trouble with heat.
Having said that it would (doin well today) depend on the ventilation and cooling set ups, and how large a space the case consisted of. As for shielding personally I am wondering what you may be shielding it from or is it to protect any wireless devices you make have set up on the machine?

The other thing that has me thinking is why wood is it the cost aesthetics of the machine. If just looks were the primary reason then why not mount a rig inside a cabinet and relay connections to a large front and back panel/s.

I've often wondered how one would go with using those light weight building blocks - not heavy easy to work and the thermal resistance excellent. I reckon there must be ceramic type paneling around now that would also suffice.

There was a build going on some time back which I haven't heard of what became of it or whatever that one used wood based boards I seem to remember but was huge and could not have been something one could move around easily if at all.

 

[Music Guy123]

Haha, thank you, icit2lol...I'll pardon the puns !! Erm, I mean proper wood, walnut or oak probably. And it'll be a proper project, I'll build it properly, using dovetail joints etc. Heat is a minor problem! I'm a bit OCD when it comes to cooling! And I'll base the case loosely on a haf-x for internal dimensions. So should be pretty big! I will also get a noctua nh-d14 cooler later on. As for emi/rf shielding. Mixture, it can play havoc with sound systems, likewise though, something like a phone can interfere with a pc. So I was wondering how to shield it, apparantly foil doesn't work. But I don't know! Also, how would one ground everything?

Also, I think I will settle on an i7. I feel much more comfortable with it and i'm sure that I will be satisfied!

Thank you very much everyone, your help is all much appreciated!

Music

 

[ICIT2LOL]

Haha, thank you, icit2lol...I'll pardon the puns !! Erm, I mean proper wood, walnut or oak probably. And it'll be a proper project, I'll build it properly, using dovetail joints etc. Heat is a minor problem! I'm a bit OCD when it comes to cooling! And I'll base the case loosely on a haf-x for internal dimensions. So should be pretty big! I will also get a noctua nh-d14 cooler later on. As for emi/rf shielding. Mixture, it can play havoc with sound systems, likewise though, something like a phone can interfere with a pc. So I was wondering how to shield it, apparantly foil doesn't work. But I don't know! Also, how would one ground everything?

Also, I think I will settle on an i7. I feel much more comfortable with it and i'm sure that I will be satisfied!

Thank you very much everyone, your help is all much appreciated!

Music

Hum nice MG I used to love working with wood until the old shoulder got wrecked - still have all my machinery - you lucky B******D LOL!!

Actually I am using a HAF XM at the moment for a build which isn't that much smaller than the HAF X in fact it is wider just a tad less height and length 20mm H and 11mm L. It's like an Olympic pool lying on it's side I like it because like you am a cooling, filtering, and ventilation freak.

I am going liquid though and I reckon if you could get some sort of direct ducting to the outside from the rear and top fans and from the sides to the intakes that would be a real plus. The cabinet you could vent direct at the rear via some 230mm fans.
The only downside for me would be that the machine sits closer to the ground which for me is a big NO NO.

Now the shielding there wold have to be some form of mesh much like you see in TV cables screening that can be directly coupled to the a couple of well earthed points

Like these - just for an idea BOPP - DFARS Compliant, stainless steel wire mesh, stainless steel wire cloth, Nutsche Filters, sintered wire mesh laminates, sintered wire mesh chromatography frits, porous metal laminates, diffusion bonded wire mesh, roll sintered wire mesh, stainl if not then some thin aluminium plate or even copper plate to line the insides of the cabinet

 

[Music Guy123]

I'm sorry about your shoulder, I hope it doesn't restrict you too much. Thank you for your help again. The link didn't work on my phone though, don't know why. I'll try it on my laptop when I get a chance! And I'm afraid I certainly won't be going water cooled, I'm an air cooled fan (if you'll pardon the pun ) in everything really, from engines to computers!! The closed loop water coolers aren't actually as good as a noctua nh-d14 in terms of cooling. And if they are, they tend to be very noisy! Custom loop is different. However, water plus my pc just don't mix in my opinion, I'd never be able to afford a custom loop and would be worried it may break or something! And it's not necessary for me. As for a closed loop, I don't trust them, I've seen them burst before! It's not a pretty sight!! So, air cooling for me, much more reliable!! How do I ground the shielding, do I just run a wire from it to the psu case? Or should I plug it into one of the cables? I guess I ground my hdds to it and make sure the mobo standoffs r connected. Is that enough? I'm still wondering how to shield though! Also, how big are the wavelengths? I think they'd be quite long, but do you know how long?

 

[kbrady1979]

I'm sorry about your shoulder, I hope it doesn't restrict you too much. Thank you for your help again. The link didn't work on my phone though, don't know why. I'll try it on my laptop when I get a chance! And I'm afraid I certainly won't be going water cooled, I'm an air cooled fan (if you'll pardon the pun ) in everything really, from engines to computers!! The closed loop water coolers aren't actually as good as a noctua nh-d14 in terms of cooling. And if they are, they tend to be very noisy! Custom loop is different. However, water plus my pc just don't mix in my opinion, I'd never be able to afford a custom loop and would be worried it may break or something! And it's not necessary for me. As for a closed loop, I don't trust them, I've seen them burst before! It's not a pretty sight!! So, air cooling for me, much more reliable!! How do I ground the shielding, do I just run a wire from it to the psu case? Or should I plug it into one of the cables? I guess I ground my hdds to it and make sure the mobo standoffs r connected. Is that enough? I'm still wondering how to shield though! Also, how big are the wavelengths? I think they'd be quite long, but do you know how long?

I would disagree with a few of those statements about closed loop water cooling systems. Any good one will match performance, or outperform an air cooler, even the Noctua. The good kits these days are built very, very well, they have good swivel fittings, and great hoses/connectors. They are also definitely not loud!

Different strokes though.....I don't like a 3lb chunk of metal hanging precariously off my motherboard/cpu socket, with fins sticking out everywhere to be bent all to hell, and fans jammed in there with no possible way of properly cleaning the cooler, all with the possibility of blocking your RAM slot nearest the CPU socket.

Any closed loop kit with a decent width radiator will remove heat more efficiently....and anybody with any knowledge of how to properly install one will see lower temps. I have the Intel water cooler which came with ONE fan and I installed it as an intake on the back of my case to pull cool air in and push it through the RAD, and I have a 200mm exhaust fan at the top which instantly pulls any warmer air up and out of the case and I've never seen temps above 55*.....and that was messing around at 4.5GHz without adjusting voltages. I can run this at 4.4GHz and stress it for 12+ hours and it settles in at 50-52*. I'm sure there are air coolers that will do that, but I guarantee the air cooler will be louder.

That said, if I DID go with an aircooler, it would probably be the Noctua. They are pricey, but pretty much as good as it gets for air cooling.

 

[ICIT2LOL]

Well MG I was going with the Deepcool Gamer Storm Assassin - thats a serious piece of kit DEEPCOOL - GAMER STORM but boy does it take up some serious room.

Now the Intel liquid I've got sounds as if it has some space for expansion inside so I am not too worried.

Now I think most of the phone stuff out here at least works on either 2.4GHz or I think it is 5.8GHZ and most microwaves are 2.4GHz hence why they started switching from the 2.4GHz in the phones because of the interference - but I stand to be corrected.

Personally I think the shielding up the cabinet may be overkill but again I stand to be corrected. .

 

[Music Guy123]

Haha, well each to their own I think! I'd agree that top end closed loops (e.g. h100) are better than the d-14 cooling wise. However, I'm pretty sure anything lower (e.g. h80) is worse. The h100 will be louder as it has four fans plus a water pump. The noctuas are virtually silent when in a case. If I've got the right cooler, your cooler is certainly not as good as a noctua, have a look here where it is tested agains the h100: Page 2 - Intel’s liquid CPU cooler: Is water worth the cost? | ExtremeTech (if that isn't your cooler, I got it wrong sorry!). Have a look at this as well: Intel LGA2011 CPU Cooler Roundup For Sandy Bridge-E Processors - Temperature Testing Results - Legit Reviews The noctua is certainly up there! And the fans can be very quiet, there is only two of them and no pump!

As for my case, I'd agree it's not going to be easy to shield and stuff. I think what I will do is buy a motherboard backplate for an original case or get an old one then attach that to the wood. I'll then go from there, should make life a lot more easy!!! As for the deepcool game storm, very interesting!!!! I'll look at it in detail! Thanks for that! Air coolers are huge though! I considered a scythe typhoon but was worried it might be a little too big!! As for the GHz of phones, i think you aren't far off!

Anyway, thanks for the help so far guys, it is very much appreciated!

All the best,

Music Guy

 

[kbrady1979]

Just to clarify, that test between the H100 and the Intel cooler is on socket 2011, mine is on socket 1155 and on an Ivy Bridge chip. All the reviews I read about that cooler don't do it justice because I know what it runs and has ran from day 1 and it is significantly lower than most reviewers' tests. I've never seen it hit more than 55* and that was with way more voltage than it needed @ 4.5GHz. Either way, you'll have a good cooler, I was just trying to dispel some myths about closed loop water coolers.

 

[Music Guy123]

Just to clarify, that test between the H100 and the Intel cooler is on socket 2011, mine is on socket 1155 and on an Ivy Bridge chip. All the reviews I read about that cooler don't do it justice because I know what it runs and has ran from day 1 and it is significantly lower than most reviewers' tests. I've never seen it hit more than 55* and that was with way more voltage than it needed @ 4.5GHz. Either way, you'll have a good cooler, I was just trying to dispel some myths about closed loop water coolers.

Haha, no problem! I didn't think about the fact of the two different sockets! Anyway, the point is, I don't want water in my pc ! It's just my opinion! Fair enough to all those who want it, I see where you are coming from and you have good reasons to want to do so!

 

[kbrady1979]

I understand where you are coming from, as I was leery about it at first. Keep us posted on the progression of your build!

 

[ICIT2LOL]

Yeah MG let us know how it goes but just out of interest take a look at this (what I was originally buy but the overhang on the RAM was making it very tight, and you thought the Scythe was big LOL!!

Gamer Storm Assassin CPU Cooler Review | Hardware Secrets

As for your shield mate I'd just go the metal sheet inside the box? Would not be a big job nor should it be expensive if you use very thin plate (copper would be ideal)

 

[Music Guy123]

I'll keep you guys updated! As for the shielding, i'll stick some copper sheets in. I don't know what I'll do about the mobo backplate yet! I might just put a thing copper sheet and screw standoffs into that or into the wood.

As for the cooler, that's quite big but it's identical size and design wise to the noctua. The difference is it has more heatpipes. Also, the CPU plate is larger but this isn't an advantage as it just overhangs the CPU I think. Anyway, for the earlier thing about water coolers being quieter, have a look at the bottom of the page: Gamer Storm Assassin CPU Cooler Review | Hardware Secrets The h100 is only 5*C cooler but makes a racket! And I dont know Ill go with this one, I still prefer the noctua. Have a look at this, I know it's with a 3950 but the noise levels will be similar. m.tomshardware.com/reviews/LGA-2011-i7-3960X-Air-Overclocking,3130.html Skip the installation part if you want. And if you think some of those coolers are big, have a look at the scythe susanoo!!!

Anyway, thanks again for all the help, it's very much appreciated!

Music Guy

 

[ICIT2LOL]

Hey MG that actually never occurred to me before now - the weight of the cooler hanging off the board. I knew the Deepcooler was rather large and perhaps was heavy did didn't really relate it to what would be like building a block of flats on the side of a cliff!!

Hum that has got me thinking I suppose even though it is costly liquid nitrogen sorta makes sense a bit now insomuch hat you could just pipe it in from an outside exchange unit a bit like my split system air conditioning. Mind you from reading a bit about what the effects LN2 would be on say a mobo I suppose even that is pushing the envelope because given that it is supposedly electrically inert I am thinking more about the effect of the extreme low temps on components (I wonder how the BIOS battery for instance would fare) perhaps making them electrically no conductors??

There seems to be no real easy and inexpensive answer unless you are clever enough to manufacture heat pipes that were long enough to be routed to a heat exchanger outside of the unit big enough to be supported on it's own mounting point/s.

Mate maybe I missed something along the way (not an impossibility) but are you going to mount the mobo directly to the side / back of the cabinet?

Anyway nice ref - thanks!

Beam me up errrr....

 

[Music Guy123]

Haha, yes, that's a good way to describe that cooler, it truely is huge!! I think I'll stick to the noctua for now, I may consider the susanoo but it's a bit big. As for liquid N2, now i don't know how you would pipe it! Because you would have to keep it moving to be able to keep it all cool, it would take vast amounts of energy to cool it! Then, what happens when you turn the pc off? You either have to remove all the LN2 and store it somewhere and then put it in when you start the pc but that is a nightmare. You can't leave it just to sit there, because it will evaporate. And you can't keep it circulating and the pc off because I'm sure storing a cpu at -200 is a bit ambitious! It will damage some components but it also may make them more effective! When you cool down a conductor, you can cool it down far enough so that it has no resistance, this is called superconductivity. Now, this is only doable with a select few materials at -200*C, things like aluminium do it at about -270*C. However, -200 will improve it dramatically. However, there are more problems though to deal with, I wouldn't worry about the CMOS battery but using nitrogen constantly will certainly kill your components! People do use nitrogen for extreme OCing. It is poured into a can that is on top of the cpu. That cools it. When the LN2 evaporates, they add more. But this is not a very long term solution, it's just a minute or two!

Anyway, that's just a little physics for you! As for my pc, I don't know whether to set it up as a tower or desktop config. Tower takes a lot less space but with a big cooler, can put stress on the mobo. Desktop takes up a tonne of space but is less stressful...But yes, the mobo will be mounted on the side or back, or base, depends!

Anyway, thanks again!

Music

 

[ICIT2LOL]

Yeah it's a pity we couldn't figure out how to use some of the older fridge technologies like those older ammonia based ones

I reckon if there were some way of containing solid CO2 within the cooler pipes instead of the - I think I am right in saying they use demineralised water at time of writing that would at least give some sort of protection against damage by leakage. Because as far as I am aware and I stand to be corrected CO2 is not a very corrosive medium / molecule unless it is bound to a hydrogen atom making carbonic acid. I suppose one could also argue they (ordinary heat pipes) could also burst through whatever cause - then one would have a similar problem.

So to say one is out of the woods by using an air cooler is not strictly correct if spillage is the main concern within the case.

Which brings me back to what could be used in the pipes or liquid system that would allow heat transfer and not be a problem should the system leak or catastrophically destruct itself, by using a transfer agent that is electrically inert / non conductive.

Having said that I will agree that the liquid system is inherently more likely to cause that catastrophic damage should it develop a fault

 

[Britton30]

A wood case sounds really awesome. You might cannabalise a metal case and use the drive bays and motherboard back plate and put them in the wood case. you can ground (earth) the whole mess with a Molex connector using the black wire from it. If all the metal parts are attached to each other, voila', grounding done.
Shielding, maybe you don't need it. Many case come with a large plastic (acrylic or polycarbonate) window and they have no shield on the one side at least. I suspect if you'd use the metal case parts they would provide plenty of shielding. The opto drives and HDDs would be enclosed in a metal cocoon-like arrangement.

About LN cooling. That is used only for an exhibition for overclockers or to show off at an electronics show. The board, RAM, GPU, and area around the CPU socket all have to be sealed with an insulation material to keep them away from the extreme cold as much as possible. There is still a lot of condensation build up, which freezes, then thaws flooding the whole mess.