XP's retirement will be hacker heaven

[z3r010]

I have several zx81 games on tape that I can no longer play, but I've got over it and embraced the new up-to-date games

 

[maxie]

I have several zx81 games on tape that I can no longer play, but I've got over it and embraced the new up-to-date games

Very collectable one was sold recently in kit form on ebay for £395

 

[Tews]

What really scares me is that the VA hospital I go to is still running XP!!!

 

[Lady Fitzgerald]

I have 64-bit Windows 7 which can't run 16-bit applications. That means I need another OS to run old games like the first Max Payne. DOSbox can bypass some limitations but not all. Furthermore I had some unexplainable physics bugs in shadow Man playing under 7, yet the game works fine in XP..

As for running in a virtual machine, this also gives me a second PC to go online with in case my 7 PC has issues.

Have you tried running them in compatibility mode?

 

[lehnerus2000]

Compatibility Mode

I have 64-bit Windows 7 which can't run 16-bit applications. That means I need another OS to run old games like the first Max Payne. DOSbox can bypass some limitations but not all. Furthermore I had some unexplainable physics bugs in shadow Man playing under 7, yet the game works fine in XP..

As for running in a virtual machine, this also gives me a second PC to go online with in case my 7 PC has issues.

Have you tried running them in compatibility mode?

Compatibility Mode has never worked properly for me (i.e. it solves one issue, but causes another).

It may solve other people's issues though.

"Run as administrator" often solves issues with software, but it leaves you open to sneak attacks.

 

[sygnus21]

I have several zx81 games on tape that I can no longer play, but I've got over it and embraced the new up-to-date games

LOL! Perfect

 

[Diosoth]

I have 64-bit Windows 7 which can't run 16-bit applications. That means I need another OS to run old games like the first Max Payne. DOSbox can bypass some limitations but not all. Furthermore I had some unexplainable physics bugs in shadow Man playing under 7, yet the game works fine in XP..

As for running in a virtual machine, this also gives me a second PC to go online with in case my 7 PC has issues.

Have you tried running them in compatibility mode?

Yes, didn't matter. Not that I have ever had nay success with compatibility mode.

I suspect the bugs with Shadow Man might be the GPU, as I doubt the OS would cause physics bugs like that. As much as I want others to test the game under 7, the PC copy of Shadow Man has all but become impossible to find even used anymore, and now that Jim Shooter got back the old Valiant licenses he's doing his best to keep all the old Valiant-based Acclaim titles under lock and key as they're not "his versions" of the characters. Granted, they've promised for 7 years straight they would get those games onto the download networks but it never happened, and probably never will.

I can understand some rights issues with Turok as Gold Key got back all their old properties, but Shadow Man should be no issue to release.

 

[MouseGolf]

XP will not go away easily but we Geeks can speculate and debate all day long. The average computer user in residential scenarios and in giant corporate scenarios are not going to whine and complain that "they need an upgrade".

Everyone will just to have to wait and see what happens to the "average computer users" in the world.

They don't read our dribble anyway! :grouphug:

 

[Lady Fitzgerald]

One thing M$ could do is start slipping a warning in with XP updates telling users they need to upgrade before April next year and why. That could alleviate some of the flack that will otherwise be coming their way.

Oh...wait...nope, bad idea. Makes too much sense.

 

[sygnus21]

I personally don't see why Microsoft should do anymore than what they've already done in warning people. If people still want to hold onto a dying OS, than they accept what they get.

I can't see what Microsoft is doing wrong here

 

[A Guy]

I agree. It's amazing how many people just have their heads in the sand. Here we have them closing a major bridge for 5 days, it has been in the news for months, there are flashing signs along the freeways, etc. But I guarantee there will be many cars pulling up and finding out the bridge is closed and being indignant no one said anything. A Guy

 

[sygnus21]

Yeah I have the same thing going on in my area of the woods too (a bridge closing). And yeah some are acting like it's the first time they've heard of it when it too has been in the news for weeks here.

Anyway I always ask when are people going to take responsibility for themselves instead of laying blame elsewhere; especially when the info has been loudly been announced

 

[marsmimar]

One of the problems facing many large businesses is financial. The hospital I go to has 5 locations in the greater metropolitan area, all of which are 150+ bed free-standing facilities. They also have a few specialty hospitals that deal with nothing but heart issues, kidney issues, etc. And they have minor emergency clinics scattered about. All of them use XP on every desktop and laptop.

Conservatively speaking, they will have to find a way to upgrade more than 150,000 machines and most will probably have to be replaced rather than upgraded because of puny CPUs, RAM, etc. A lot of their diagnostic software for x-rays, MRIs, etc won't run on 7 or 8 so that too will have to be replaced. Then there's the training costs associated with new equipment. For a hospital environment, they can get around the financial costs by simply charging patients more (sarcasm intentional.) But other businesses may not be able to do that.

Not saying that finances are an excuse, but it is a reality for many. Even though they've known about XP's demise for a long time.

 

[A Guy]

Oh no doubt Lee. But Drew and I were more commenting on how MS should be warning people that support is ending. It's different when they are aware, but financially, or logistically unable to update. I'm sure MS would point to the lower price of 8. But even if the hardware can run 8, can you imagine switching from XP to 8? Even if their software would run? Oh boy. It's something that has been known for a long time, but they will no doubt just keep on using it, and hope for the best. Imagine the possibility for data breaches. A Guy

 

[Everlong]

One thing M$ could do is start slipping a warning in with XP updates telling users they need to upgrade before April next year and why. That could alleviate some of the flack that will otherwise be coming their way.

Oh...wait...nope, bad idea. Makes too much sense.

Nothing to do with making too much sense. It's too intrusive.

 

[bobafetthotmail]

One thing M$ could do is start slipping a warning in with XP updates telling users they need to upgrade before April next year and why.

Most home users still clinging to XP don't like the idea of paying again for stuff they have already, or don't have the cash to do so (this also applies to small and medium businness). Which while a dumb choice is still a valid point.

Anyway lot of people cannot be convinced without some irrefutable evidence that even a simpleton can understand. That is, they are going to migrate after a disaster happens. And with plenty of irrational fear. So they might decide that all desktops are vulnerable regardless of OS and take a tablet.

Once XP becomes unsupported MS is no more responsible for any such disaster, so why bother? (<--an educated guess at what they are thinking at MS, not my opinion)

Nothing to do with making too much sense. It's too intrusive.

The EU-mandated browser choice screen was something like that. After install you get a popup asking what browser you want and offer some choices. Given that XP users are risking their bank account credentials or whatever being stolen (and go bankrupt a few seconds afterwards) I think it would make sense to at least drop a benign boot popup to tell this fact.

Something actually intrusive would be an update that causes a lockdown/deletes internet services/components ala Windows 7 after the 30 days of trial (that locks down updates and downgrades desktop backgrounds) or an outright format c: command from remote.

Considering that a hospital has to interface with insurance companies, vendors, financial institutions, etc., I simply do not see how they can have a closed system.

It all comes down to where the data is actually stored, and who is talking to who.
If it is in a server running something modern (like say Debian or BSD or even Server 2008 if they had cash to throw away), there is no way in heck that even a compromised "terminal" running XP is going to access/damage data from it unless someone manages to find a vulnerability in the client program talking to the server. As the server does not accept any other requests from the terminal. And if it is a custom made system like most places I've seen, it's going to be a pita to hack (before doing the hack you need to study the program carefully and tinker with it to find weak points, being so rare and/or custom made, it's very very hard to get the programs to set up a test machine in the first place).

To make an example, the two hospitals and a few banks (and one university) I know run XP PCs in a closed internal network, but all the XP terminals do is running a custom-made client program that talks with the server's database. (while some privileged few like the boss and management staff have limited internet access, although firewalled)

It's the server that talks to insurances, banks and whatever external stuff, but is again talking to other servers that look/edit their own databases, not possibly infected XP terminals at the banks/insurances/whatever. And the server is NOT going to accept and run shit from unknown sources. And is far far easier to keep up-to-date as far as OS changing goes.
The same servers usually do also the job of official mail server, so people can receive/send mail through their official account on that server without giving full internet access to all drone stations, as it is again a client-server communication (and while more hackable, it has more limited use as what you can do with mail transfer protocols is not much).

So yeah, worst case scenario is that all terminals running XP crash and burn. Unless they are total morons life-critical machinery isn't run by such terminals, as XP can and does crash for its own unfathomable reasons too.

The real problem is in the home and small-businness segment of the market. And places run by idiots, of course.

All places with trained IT guys running the show tend to have such relatively safe setups.

 

[Diosoth]

MS could make it more appealing to upgrade to a new OS if they actually cared enough to make sure older software worked on the new versions. Fact is, they don't do a good job of it. I guess they figure they can pass off that task to the people who make DOSbox and such, but that's meaningless to less tech-savvy users who just want to play the first Simcity instead of the always-online DRM-riddled new Simcity. 64-bit could run 16-bit programs but they won't bother to make it happen because it's only useful for old games. I sort of want to play that old DOS Spider-Man game and it'd be nice if games like that just ran without the need of some extra program.

I know gog.com packs DOSbox in with their older game,s but how many people understand what DOSbox even is? They don't need to tinker with it, and there's a separate copy with each game so they don't need to learn how to set up the program for multiple games. It's a quick fix solution that isn't the most ideal.

There are source ports for some games, which are often better than running the original as they add higher resolutions, hi-res texture options, and often can expand the game engine far beyond what it was originally capable of. GZDoom maps far exceed what Doom could've done originally. However, those require the game's source code to be released and programmers to actually put effort into it. Not every game gets the source code released(some games, such as Blood, are lost forever) and not every source port gets enhancements.

I know it may sound almost unreasonable to ask MS to support everything but you couldn't pay me to play those "regenerating health/cover system/2 gun limit" junk FPS titles that are the norm. The fact is, even with Windows 7, I still feel a need to have XP on hand for older gaming because 7 won't run some games. It's sad when a game that came out in 1999 is far better than some letdown like Duke Nukem Forever. And, you know, why should a home user upgrade to a new OS if their current one works fine?

But even beyond that... businesses in need of a local network might start considering cheap options such as a Raspberry Pi for their business use. Even factoring in the case, power supply and all that a Pi is still no more than $100. A 32 GB SD card should suffice for the personal device storage and if it's on a network where a main server stores all the info on hard drives then it's not a big deal. The OS is effectively free. It's why schools in poorer areas have adopted the Pi for educational use instead of PCs, and with mor epowerful competitor boards like the Cubieboard coming out that may be the new PC market for businesses, schools, hospitals and such. Windows will have a harder time in that market.

 

[A Guy]

I believe this too is more indicative of the market MS is going for. There is a huge group out there who must have the latest and greatest, even when what they have suits their needs, and in fact, already does more then they need. When you just put out a white version, or add an S to the end of the model number and people scramble to buy it and abandon their perfectly working former model...

This is a very lucrative market, and MS wants a piece of it. These people do not hold on to programs that work as long as they can, they want the newest version. The group of people (no doubt quite large) who hold on to their old tech and programs don't excite companies as there is no cash flow from it. That's why cloud programs with subscriptions appeal to them so much as well.

We all probably know someone, if only by hearsay, that still uses Win 2000, or even 98. If they could, they'd use them forever. For them, it's hardware failure, or massive slowdown by malware, and junk that finally gets them to upgrade.

We're all geeks here, so we occupy a certain place in the mix, but the 2 polars are the early adopters, and those who hang on to their stuff. The former are where the money is obviously.

A Guy

 

[Wenda]

A comment of mine from a related thread on EF...

"I've recently been asked by my brother to set XP up in Virtual-Box for him as his digital microscope won't work with anything later.

He runs Win 7 Home Premium 32-bit, and does not want a whole separate machine. He's aware of the security implications, the VM won't be connected to the net.

XP will live for years under scenarios such as this."

He's not all that computer-savvy, but is aware of the holes in XP. But his microscope
won't talk to anything more recent, so a VM is the way for him to go.

Replacing the 'scope isn't an option for him at present.

I run quite a few (around 15) old OSes in Virtual-Box, the oldest currently being Windows ME and NT4, and WfW 3.11.

Wenda.

 

[sygnus21]

One of the problems facing many large businesses is financial. The hospital I go to has 5 locations in the greater metropolitan area, all of which are 150+ bed free-standing facilities. They also have a few specialty hospitals that deal with nothing but heart issues, kidney issues, etc. And they have minor emergency clinics scattered about. All of them use XP on every desktop and laptop.

Conservatively speaking, they will have to find a way to upgrade more than 150,000 machines and most will probably have to be replaced rather than upgraded because of puny CPUs, RAM, etc. A lot of their diagnostic software for x-rays, MRIs, etc won't run on 7 or 8 so that too will have to be replaced. Then there's the training costs associated with new equipment. For a hospital environment, they can get around the financial costs by simply charging patients more (sarcasm intentional.) But other businesses may not be able to do that.

Not saying that finances are an excuse, but it is a reality for many. Even though they've known about XP's demise for a long time.

The instance you paint above is a very valid point. As a one time budget manager when I was in the military even we had to scale back on upgrades to computers because of the sheer volume that needed OS/software/hardware upgrades. In that case, I can clearly see why large businesses like the hospital you cite would hang on to deal life. It's not seen as a financial priority, especially when so many other services are struggling.

That said, for the average home user, I don't see it being feasible to hang on for dear life. The aggravation and headaches of trying to repair the system should something like a virus come along and wipe out the system due to unpatched security holes could be a pain.

And let's not forget that the average Jane/Joe Blow's aren't doing their own maintenance, or even delve that deep into the system, so repairs could be costly. Thus the question becomes do you want to spend that much on an old system/OS?

For these people I say move on to something more modern. It'll more than likely be cheaper in the long run, and a lot safer.