Windows designer explains why Windows 8 is such a mess

[Lady Fitzgerald]

I tried to visualize the equivalent of the menu Jimbo showed as it would appear in the Modern UI and immediately became dizzy and got a headache.

 

[gregrocker]

Is this guy still with the company? If so it might explain why there is no effort to save themselves from New Coke, doubling down on the worst product rollout disaster in history.

I also didn't want to believe that they would be trying to kill off the desktop which they'd built to perfection in Win7 for a billion customers and which drives the world economy. But Win8 sure comes close to it. Then I got my new copy of Surface Pro at MVP Summit and spent hours trying to find the Desktop - finally I came across it as the background for the Control Panel (also hidden). There it was hiding behind the Control panel, with access to it if you closed the Control Panel itself.

This has gotten to the point of ridiculousness, as in the ridicule being heaped on this guys explanations. The plan was nailed here by SIW2 early on: wannabe-Apple app subscription vending (except that they're crApps) eventually with the OS being subscription too. How's that workin out for ya?

Save yourselves! Give all users stuck with the Win8 phone app UPgrade rights to Win7 asap, put Win7 with SP2 (or call it WIn9) on new PC's immediately. Offer Win8 only on touchscreens, or for retail sale. This is how to begin to save yourselves, from ridicule and as a company offering more than Xbox.

 

[Britton30]

Another good post Greg. It's called not seeing the forest for the trees. Or shooting your foot off. Or cutting off your nose to spite your face, MS id doing them all, and quite well, unfortunately for computer users. :huh:

 

[TanyaC]

Does anyone know if any M$ people read this and other forums like this?

Surely they would be extremely embarrased to see the types of comments that go around about the company. Or are they so far off reality and bereft of conscience that these sorts of comments run off like water off a ducks back?

 

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Does anyone know if any M$ people read this and other forums like this?

Surely they would be extremely embarrased to see the types of comments that go around about the company. Or are they so far off reality and bereft of conscience that these sorts of comments run off like water off a ducks back?

The second one.

 

[Britton30]

Does anyone know if any M$ people read this and other forums like this?

Surely they would be extremely embarrased to see the types of comments that go around about the company. Or are they so far off reality and bereft of conscience that these sorts of comments run off like water off a ducks back?

PC monitors don't have Braille yet, so I suppose they miss all of these discussions.

 

[Iforgot]

M$ read thus forums??
What the big bosses, direction leaders?

If M$ are still in profit, then what's the problem.

If you look at the possible profit if M$ go the Fruit way.. well not so much now maybe, but the expected returns?? well

At present, If you don't like Win8/8.1/8.2 then what will they go for.....? the fruity puter? or Win7?

So M$ are not really loosing that much.... even if they want to be stubborn.

 

[andrew129260]

........Surface Pro at MVP Summit and spent hours trying to find the Desktop - finally I came across it.....

I hate windows 8 too, but you took hours to find it? Please tell me that is an exaggeration. I took 10 seconds tops.

 

[whs]

A software development group rarely listens to the users for the simple reason that the users are usually 5 years behind their strategy and thinking. In my 35 years of operating system development I have rarely seen customer input that was integrated into any development plan.

Now that does not mean that mistakes were not corrected. But when it came to strategy and direction, the customers had really very little influence.

I remember being on a task force where we travelled around the world in small groups during 4 weeks visiting many Fortune 500 companies. We were looking for inputs for our future product strategies - technical and Ts&Cs. The trips were very pleasant because we were often invited to lush dinners - but the inputs we received were very meager. The customers were mostely concerned with their daily problems and brought up a lot of nits and lice. But the impact on what we were doing was quasi nil.

The same happens here. MS has a strategy for the future (at least I hope so) and we are moaning about the start menu and other nits. I don't think that will impress them a lot.

 

[whs]

........Surface Pro at MVP Summit and spent hours trying to find the Desktop - finally I came across it.....

I hate windows 8 too, but you took hours to find it? Please tell me that is an exaggeration. I took 10 seconds tops.

LOL, that can happen. The first time I had a Nexus 7 in my hand I was also lost. I did not know that you had to swipe the thing sideways.

 

[gregrocker]

My point is that they hid the Desktop on Surface Pro and don't want us using it at all - just like iPad .

It just happened to appear behind the Control Panel on the copy of Surface Pro I was playing with that night. It took a few visits to Control Panel before I spied it hiding in the background. It was not on the Start screen or in any menu I checked.

This is not the normal Surface which still has the Desktop. That they remove it on Pro proves their intentions all along - killing off the desktop perfected in Win7 which earned them a billion customers and drives the world economy. It could be a Saturday Night Live skit.

If your point is that I don't know Surface Pro, I merrily plead guilty. I gave mine to Rayda for her son.

 

[Britton30]

Strange, I would think software developers should know what their potential customers want, not what they think we need. It sounds like the thought control and history re-writing in Orwell's 1984, "the war is going well...."

 

[whs]

I would think software developers should know what their potential customers want

Not really. The developers hardly ever get in touch with any customer. There are layers of marketing organizations that are supposed to speak to the customers. They do this more or less and develop product objectives from what THEY think should be done. In the meantime the developers - especially the architects - are already 3 steps ahead and are struggeling now to fumble those objectives into their architecture.

It is not such a streamlined process as one may think and there is a lot of infighting between the different camps. The result is usually a horse designed by a committee - which is a donkey if you are lucky or it is a kangaroo

 

[King Arthur]

I would think software developers should know what their potential customers want

Not really. The developers hardly ever get in touch with any customer. There are layers of marketing organizations that are supposed to speak to the customers. They do this more or less and develop product objectives from what THEY think should be done. In the meantime the developers - especially the architects - are already 3 steps ahead and are struggeling now to fumble those objectives into their architecture.

It is not such a streamlined process as one may think and there is a lot of infighting between the different camps. The result is usually a horse designed by a committee - which is a donkey if you are lucky or it is a kangaroo

And free/non-commercial/open-source isn't any better either, just in case someone here thinks that this is only a problem with commercial/closed-source software devs like Microsoft and Apple.

Case in point: Ubuntu, Mozilla, Google, Opera, and uTorrent to name some names. All of them (and many others) are infamous for ignoring or even outright defying user wants, requirements, and demands.

 

[Dallas 7]

A software development group rarely listens to the users for the simple reason that the users are usually 5 years behind their strategy and thinking. In my 35 years of operating system development I have rarely seen customer input that was integrated into any development plan.

Now that does not mean that mistakes were not corrected. But when it came to strategy and direction, the customers had really very little influence.

I remember being on a task force where we travelled around the world in small groups during 4 weeks visiting many Fortune 500 companies. We were looking for inputs for our future product strategies - technical and Ts&Cs. The trips were very pleasant because we were often invited to lush dinners - but the inputs we received were very meager. The customers were mostely concerned with their daily problems and brought up a lot of nits and lice. But the impact on what we were doing was quasi nil.

The same happens here. MS has a strategy for the future (at least I hope so) and we are moaning about the start menu and other nits. I don't think that will impress them a lot.

I have a strategy for the future also, and it definitely does not include W8 or 8.1.

 

[Lady Fitzgerald]

A software development group rarely listens to the users for the simple reason that the users are usually 5 years behind their strategy and thinking. In my 35 years of operating system development I have rarely seen customer input that was integrated into any development plan.

Now that does not mean that mistakes were not corrected. But when it came to strategy and direction, the customers had really very little influence.

I remember being on a task force where we travelled around the world in small groups during 4 weeks visiting many Fortune 500 companies. We were looking for inputs for our future product strategies - technical and Ts&Cs. The trips were very pleasant because we were often invited to lush dinners - but the inputs we received were very meager. The customers were mostely concerned with their daily problems and brought up a lot of nits and lice. But the impact on what we were doing was quasi nil.

The same happens here. MS has a strategy for the future (at least I hope so) and we are moaning about the start menu and other nits. I don't think that will impress them a lot.

I have a strategy for the future also, and it definitely does not include W8 or 8.1.

 

[lehnerus2000]

Another good post Greg. It's called not seeing the forest for the trees. Or shooting your foot off. Or cutting off your nose to spite your face, MS id doing them all, and quite well, unfortunately for computer users. :huh:

Killed the goose that laid the golden eggs.

Strange, I would think software developers should know what their potential customers want, not what they think we need. It sounds like the thought control and history re-writing in Orwell's 1984, "the war is going well...."

IMO, Apps + locked down devices, are the modern version of Orwell's "Newspeak".

Newspeak is the fictional language in the novel Nineteen Eighty-Four, written by George Orwell. It is a controlled language created by the totalitarian state as a tool to limit freedom of thought, and concepts that pose a threat to the regime such as freedom, self-expression, individuality, peace, etc. Any form of thought alternative to the party’s construct is classified as "thoughtcrime."

Wikipedia
Newspeak - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
​

.

Case in point: Ubuntu, Mozilla, Google, Opera, and uTorrent to name some names. All of them (and many others) are infamous for ignoring or even outright defying user wants, requirements, and demands.

You forgot GNOME.
They aren't called "the GUI Nazis" for nothing.

 

[whs]

I have a strategy for the future also, and it definitely does not include W8 or 8.1.

That is absolutely no problem. Everybody should do what they like. I am not a big fan of 8.1 either. But I have two 8.1 systems and it is kind of growing on me - especially since it is faster and has a smaller footprint.

On my Asis Transformer that came with only a 30GB disk it uses only half of that disk and the Atom processor performs extremely well with 8.1. I doubt that Windows 7 would do as well.

 

[Iforgot]

I would think software developers should know what their potential customers want

Not really. The developers hardly ever get in touch with any customer. There are layers of marketing organizations that are supposed to speak to the customers. They do this more or less and develop product objectives from what THEY think should be done. In the meantime the developers - especially the architects - are already 3 steps ahead and are struggeling now to fumble those objectives into their architecture.

It is not such a streamlined process as one may think and there is a lot of infighting between the different camps. The result is usually a horse designed by a committee - which is a donkey if you are lucky or it is a kangaroo

Does this mean, Win8 is a wombat?

 

[Iforgot]

I have a strategy for the future also, and it definitely does not include W8 or 8.1.

That is absolutely no problem. Everybody should do what they like. I am not a big fan of 8.1 either. But I have two 8.1 systems and it is kind of growing on me - especially since it is faster and has a smaller footprint.

On my Asis Transformer that came with only a 30GB disk it uses only half of that disk and the Atom processor performs extremely well with 8.1. I doubt that Windows 7 would do as well.

I have an Asus D510 running a stripped back Win7 that was/is used as cdplayer/streamer/etc with touchscreen.
footprint is about 14GB on a 30Gb SSD and it's fast enough for the tasks..