Windows 10 worse than windows 8

[Night Hawk]

I did not have any trouble adjusting to 8 and 8.1. Yes the UI was a bit unusual at first, but after a few days of exploring I had no problems. Where I still see problems is with UEFI and secure boot. It is a real bitch to use all my old tools on those UEFI systems.

I have one laptop where the BIOS does not offer legacy mode. There is is impossible to boot e.g. a Linux from a USB stick - I am talking about a running persistent Linux system on a stick. Since weeks I try to figure out how to install a UEFI Linux on a stick but have still not managed.

I didn't take well to adding 3rd Start menus as well as running into some major incompatibility issues when trying a dual boot with 7 adding 8 into the 7 BCD only to be followed by the PC Refresh option seeing 7 added into the 8 boot loader and in each instance the two HDs in use ended up loaded with errors. I ended up flushing 8 and almost tossing the 7 install at the time until recovery of each by the Disk Check tool being run a few times. That saw both running again while the final solution was obvious.

Note in both instances the two were tied together. Plus I didn't care for how MS stripped other things besides the Start menu out that are still being used regularly. You have to isolate each OS from now on due to how the new boot sector operates. While understanding the want to provide a more secure bug free boot sector the flexibility many are accustomed to disappeared to a degree.

I'm curious, have you tried the latest WTP build, and what do you think ?

I did a clean install with the latest build in VMware Player and it performs much better than my previous WTP VM that has been updated since the original WTP release.

My biggest problem really is running in a VM, it's not the same as a bare metal install.
For me the newer versions of VMware Player don't play nice for me with screen resolution ...

When i have to scroll up/down and left/right to see the Desktop, i get annoyed and lose interest ...
I found a VMware setting change that i never needed before works when i view the Guest (WTP) in full screen ...
In some ways i feel using an older version of VMware Player works better for ME.
It auto adjusted screen resolution depending on how I was viewing and changed to correctly adjust what i see ...

I went for it here at the same time VMPlayer wanted to update itself to the latest version. I may have to dump it however and reload the 2yr.old version that was on once again. The installation stalls on the Getting devices ready with a total freeze despite adjusting the system and other settings. The download was a regular ISO file and has been put on a 4gb flash drive however once I get in there and unplug the 7 host again for a bios dual boot isolated situation having seen how the 7/8 went over like a lead balloon!

That's because MS has a page saying sign in to your MS Account during the install.
There is no indication whatsoever that you can use a Local Account until you perform a bunch of extra clicks.

If it was the other way around there would less complaints.

I don't know, how difficult is it really? Task: create a local account to sign in to Windows. Choice to make: Either select Sign in to your MS Account, or select Create a new account.

Difficult to choose? In my opinion using common sense and logics is if not necessary but at least recommended.

The initial installation does what now? local or Admin account? The admin account is always the first to be created with any OS! You won't get around that. That's where everything comes from. In Windows of course you have the two admins being the System and User types. And the initial installation sees the option for password protection unless skipped over. From there you then elevate the permissions for a new guest account to see that elevated.

If you are going to want a stand alone installation the installation media needs to be prepared. This is where the ISO not online upgrade over option is used. Rather then using blank dvds any longer I simply use one of the smaller flash drives instead exceot fior seeing the iso loaded install on a VM.

 

[whs]

Thanks Greg, I know all that. Unfortunately, my little laptop where I want to use the Linux from the stick is UEFI but there is absolutely no setting option in the BIOS. It is UEFI all the way. It is an Instant Go device. Those seem to be retarded on purpose. Another environment where MS wants to control without asking you.

I would prefer running Linux from the stick because I use it mainly at the Linux workshops at the local computer club. Right now I run Linux under VMware Player from an external SSD. I am at the limit there because the laptop has only 2GB of RAM which I split 512MB for VMware Player/Linux and 1.5GB for Windows 8.1. It runs OK and would run even better if I put the virtual machine onto the internal eMMC instead of running it from USB2. But the C partition is only 20GB so space is at a premium.

Alternatively I could take one of my big MBR laptops. But they are a lot heavier to haul around. The little guy weighs only 2 pounds and the battery lasts over 10 hours. Everybody else at the workshop is always scrambling to connect to an outlet.

 

[Kari]

The initial installation does what now? local or Admin account? The admin account is always the first to be created with any OS! You won't get around that. That's where everything comes from. In Windows of course you have the two admins being the System and User types. And the initial installation sees the option for password protection unless skipped over. From there you then elevate the permissions for a new guest account to see that elevated.

You are now mixing two different things, an admin account or a standard account versus an MS Account or a local account.

• MS Account = a Windows user account connected to an email address, used as sign in account in Windows 8 and later. An MS Account can be either an admin account or a standard account with reduced user rights
• Local Account = a legacy Windows user account, the user account mode in Windows 7 and older, can be used instead of an MS Account in Windows 8 and later. A Local Account can be either an admin account or a standard account with reduced user rights

Both MS Account and Local Account can be either Admin or Standard accounts. The first, initial user account created when Windows is installed is in all Windows versions always an Admin account (computer administrator), regardless if it is a local account or an MS account.

 

[Lady Fitzgerald]

I have to quote my earlier post:

I don't know, how difficult is it really? Task: create a local account to sign in to Windows. Choice to make: Either select Sign in to your MS Account, or select Create a new account.

Difficult to choose? In my opinion using common sense and logics is if not necessary but at least recommended.

Kari, you are bright and really know your way around computers but what may seem obvious for you may not always be so obvious for others. If someone as bright and knowledgeable as Wolfgang has problems with this, try to imagine what it would be like for others here not as knowledgeable, let alone Joe and Jill Sixpack or Ma and Pa Kettle.

 

[ThrashZone]

Yea my favorite builds actually had local account hidden out of sight on the bottom right of a page,
The best part of that was there was a hidden scroll bar which only appear if you happened to put the mouse cruiser over it accidently on the right side of the screen
Once it appeared you had to scroll down one line to see it "Local account"

It's nice to see Microsoft give it equal vision

 

[whs]

LF, you put the finger on the problem. The big green button is for an MS account and somewhere after the third click or a hidden scroll you find what you are looking for. Who is going to make all these extra clicks during the installation process. As far as I am concerned, the default MS account installation is equal to malware.

 

[ThrashZone]

Actually equal to pup's now we can call pua's

 

[DavidE]

I'm curious, have you tried the latest WTP build, and what do you think ?

I did a clean install with the latest build in VMware Player and it performs much better than my previous WTP VM that has been updated since the original WTP release.

My biggest problem really is running in a VM, it's not the same as a bare metal install.
For me the newer versions of VMware Player don't play nice for me with screen resolution ...

When i have to scroll up/down and left/right to see the Desktop, i get annoyed and lose interest ...
I found a VMware setting change that i never needed before works when i view the Guest (WTP) in full screen ...
In some ways i feel using an older version of VMware Player works better for ME.
It auto adjusted screen resolution depending on how I was viewing and changed to correctly adjust what i see ...

I went for it here at the same time VMPlayer wanted to update itself to the latest version. I may have to dump it however and reload the 2yr.old version that was on once again. The installation stalls on the Getting devices ready with a total freeze despite adjusting the system and other settings. The download was a regular ISO file and has been put on a 4gb flash drive however once I get in there and unplug the 7 host again for a bios dual boot isolated situation having seen how the 7/8 went over like a lead balloon!

I'm not exactly sure what you have done, but fwiw here is what i did.

I tried installing the latest VMWare Player version over the top of my existing version.
I got an error, so that approach didn't work for me.
I ended up uninstalling VMWare Player, rebooted, then installed the latest VMWare Player version.
That worked for me.

I didn't download a new WTP ISO file (didn't know they were available).
I downloaded the latest ESD file, and ran the ESD to ISO utility from here:
ESD to ISO - Create Bootable ISO from Windows 10 ESD File - Page 14 - Windows 10 Forums

I then loaded the ISO file I created as a new VM without problems in the latest VMWare Player version.

Also, I have been using a multi-boot Win 7 / Win 8.x PC on a single SSD/HD for a long time without issues.

 

[Night Hawk]

Yes this new build is more simplified than prior builds were.

As the RTM approaches each newer build removes itself further from the Alpha/Beta type stages to the RC equivalent type. With 7 the distinction was made clear enough for each pre-launch builds. Plus MS would intend to make things a bit easier for who come into the Preview later then others since the retail is now only a few months away.

For this one since it stalls on the latest VBox as well as the latest for the VMPlayer I will simply run it on the destination drive being a stand alone install there until the retail release replaces it.

I'm not exactly sure what you have done, but fwiw here is what i did.

I tried installing the latest VMWare Player version over the top of my existing version.
I got an error, so that approach didn't work for me.
I ended up uninstalling VMWare Player, rebooted, then installed the latest VMWare Player version.
That worked for me.

I didn't download a new WTP ISO file (didn't know they were available).
I downloaded the latest ESD file, and ran the ESD to ISO utility from here:
ESD to ISO - Create Bootable ISO from Windows 10 ESD File - Page 14 - Windows 10 Forums

I then loaded the ISO file I created as a new VM without problems in the latest VMWare Player version.

Also, I have been using a multi-boot Win 7 / Win 8.x PC on a single SSD/HD for a long time without issues.

Well unfortunately I will likely need to do the same here and simply nuke the newer version entirely and then proceed with a fresh install of the older version I had on since I could run just about anything on that! I ran several Linux distros as well as the 8 and 8.1 releases quickly without issues.

I first had to get signed back into the Insider page in order to pick and choose from online upgrade or reach the download page first seeing the OEM key and then onto the next for picking the 32bit or 64bit ISO downloads each seeing their own hash number. Here's how to get to them if you are already registered and logged into the Insider program.

First you arrive at the Insider Home Page and simply look at the two options for Getting started -phone and Getting started - PC and you know the obvious choice being PC. Then you arrive on the PC A preview for PC experts page and once again scroll down the page to the Download Windows 10 Technical Preview page and simply read the following where the link for the ISO files can be found and never clicking on the "Start upgrade now" button since that is for the online upgrade only!

Follow these steps to download Technical Preview:

• Sign up for the Windows Insider Program, if you haven't already.
• Read the system requirements.
• Click Start upgrade now, and then follow the instructions to install the preview on this PC through Windows Update.
  If you want to install the preview on another PC, you can download the ISO files instead.

On the March Update page you arrive at from there you proceed to scroll down again to the Language selection links. You will notice the option to use the Windows Disc Image Burner link ahead of that however. And once you click on the language link of choice you will see the two 32bit and 64bit direct download links open under that.

Download links

Product key: NKJFK-GPHP7-G8C3J-P6JXR-HQRJR

Show all
English (United States)

Editions Link to download SHA-1 hash value Windows 10 Technical Preview (x64) - Build 10041
(3.4 GB) xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


Windows 10 Technical Preview (x86) - Build 10041
(2.53 GB) xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

The Xs substitutes for the actual hash value for each found there. You have to be logged in however into the Insider Program account however in order to be able to get there.

 

[DavidE]

I didn't go through all that for the latest WTP Build ...

Thanks to Kari and John for making it simpler for me

 

[Night Hawk]

Well you were mentioning not knowing where the downloads in iso form where to be found. That's MS for you! :roflmao: You have to take a long walk in the park to get anywhere unless you have developer access to things!

Presently the progree on VMPlayer 5.0.2 which is now back on but only shows "Other 64bit" not W10 being an older release that came out back when 8.1 was still in preview form the device setup reached a little higher before the freeze at 50% of the Getting devices ready. I resert the VM a couple of times and am watching the dots continue to spin in a circle doing nothing else suggesting a few versions newer but not the latest is likely going to be needed.

I still have 4.0.2-.5 versions as well as the 5.0.1 however to back even further if none of later versions work. The other option besides the physical install to the second OS drive available as far as on VM would be going with the 32bit for the look on VM there to save time.

 

[lehnerus2000]

That's because MS has a page saying sign in to your MS Account during the install.
There is no indication whatsoever that you can use a Local Account until you perform a bunch of extra clicks.

If it was the other way around there would less complaints.

I don't know, how difficult is it really? Task: create a local account to sign in to Windows. Choice to make: Either select Sign in to your MS Account, or select Create a new account.

Difficult to choose? In my opinion using common sense and logics is if not necessary but at least recommended.

Actually common sense dictates that your available options are:

• Sign in with a MS email account
• Create a new MS email account

Try your "common sense" approach on any web site and see what happens.
The web page sign up is the procedure most people will be familiar with.

What is the common sense and/or logical reason not to have all three Account options on the same page?

Yep I believe it's just the wording,
I reinstalled win-8 a month or so ago and it was pretty straight forward Microsoft account and next to it was Local account.

Indeed.
I guess too many people were creating Local Accounts and so the procedure and wording had to be changed in W10.

It is not the 2 extra clicks I am complaining about. It is the fact that you have to know that 2 extra clicks are required to get to the local account. There is no way of knowing that at the moment they want to force you into the MS account. It is at that time that both options should be clearly stated.

Exactly.
The only possible reason it doesn't say create Local Account at that stage of the install is to trick people into signing up to the "Cloud".

I bailed out at that page when I first tried to install b9841.
I pulled the network cable and then started the installation again.

The initial installation does what now? local or Admin account?

No it's actually basically "MS Cloud" or "Other Cloud".
You only get a Local Account option after you choose "Other Cloud".

 

[whs]

I bailed out at that page when I first tried to install b9841.
I pulled the network cable and then started the installation again.

LOL. I did the same thing. In addition to giving both options on the same page, they should give a short explanation what the options imply - in a wording that mom and pap do understand.

 

[lehnerus2000]

I bailed out at that page when I first tried to install b9841.
I pulled the network cable and then started the installation again.

LOL. I did the same thing. In addition to giving both options on the same page, they should give a short explanation what the options imply - in a wording that mom and pap do understand.

It might need to be more than a short explanation.

I got tripped up when I tried to install LM17.1 on an external HDD.
I chose the "replace existing Linux install" instead of going to the "Disc Partition" option.
The installer helpfully installed LM17.1, after it had deleted all of the partitions on the disc and then formatted the entire it!

Luckily the other partition didn't have anything important on it ... only ~1TB of backup files!

Ever since people claimed that malware could infect your XP computer during the installation procedure, it has been my practice to always disconnect the network when installing Windows on a real PC.
I normally don't bother doing that with VMs.

 

[Night Hawk]

The initial installation does what now? local or Admin account?

No it's actually basically "MS Cloud" or "Other Cloud".
You only get a Local Account option after you choose "Other Cloud".

That's rather funny since the 32bit as I thought went right on it won't connect online! This is what you see when reaching the Create an account for this PC or with 7 along with previous version name for PC.

Notice you enter the name for the default user or admin account where you choose whether or not to assign a password or simply select the automatic login which bypasses the login prompt that would be seen on each start up. Instead you simply see the user name on the Welcome screen.

Now as far as not being too far removed being too new to be anything like 7 the initial look proved otherwise seeing the same "tweaks" like adding new quick launch tool bars with the main difference besides All apps instead of All programs on the new Start menu ending being a number of Metro style tiles bloating out sideways across the screen.

Now the thing to remember about this is that the VM installation here was from a stand alone ISO install set as the cd/dvd drive for the VM's settings over logging into an MS or Insider Program type account for an online installation which be the upgrade most likely.

Next will be the VBox install to see if the VM there will be able to connect online since something seems to be blocking the generic network adapter that needs to be worked out and could well be the av/firewall program at work.

 

[JDobbsy1987]

Next will be the VBox install to see if the VM there will be able to connect online since something seems to be blocking the generic network adapter that needs to be worked out and could well be the av/firewall program at work.

I've not had an issue with network/internet access installing Win10 on VBox or Hyper-V

-Jamie

 

[Kari]

I think I could somehow understand this debate if we were living in an Orwellian world where The Big Brother ordered even which operating system we have to use. However, as the use of Windows in general and the MS Account in particular is totally voluntary, I have no understanding for this.

Fellow geeks, keep in your mind that in your private life, on your private computers, you can freely select your operating system by yourself. Why use so much energy for complaining about something you don't want to install and use? Get a Mac, install any Linux, stop using Windows. It really is that simple.

Very chracteristic for this ongoing debate is the Windows 10 pricing. Some of the "Microsuck" propaganda was based on the price of the Windows both when "Let me keep my XP" users complained about Windows 7 and again when "I will never install Eight" users complained about Windows 8. Now when Microsoft announced that Windows 10 will be free for users of Seven and Eight, this element, price complaints were suddenly taken away from them. You'd thought that the discussion had been only positive after such a move but no, of course not; as I have said before, most of the resistance is really clearly only based on change, opposing change only for the sake of change without any really valid points. The opponents had to find a new argument when the price was taken out of the equation, so naturally now they started to complain about how wrong it is that this policy, Windows 10 for free, could make it possible that some pirates also got a free legal Windows.

Let's look at some facts:

 Cloud

Each and every Both of you geeks reading this are using cloud. A UK based company Designer Media Ltd. maintains these forums of ours on servers located in the USA. Everything is there, your avatar and the screenshots you have uploaded to your posts, the page frames and CSS files, each post, each word ever written in any section of the forums. When you clicked the title of this thread your local computer retrieved the data from the server in USA making it available to you wherever in the world you are. That is the very definition of cloud computing, storing the data somewhere else then using the correct tools, in this case a browser, to retrieve it to be used on a local computer.

The same with your email. Especially IMAP and Exchange mail protocols are pure cloud services; the messages are stored on a server from where you retrieve them to read on your local computer. YouTube, Netflix, Vimeo the same, you get data from a cloud streamed to your local computer. Gamers using Steam use cloud every time the Steam is running, and so on. Even checking the weather or reading the news is cloud based, the information stored and your request to get it handled on MSN Weather or CNN or what not, then presented to you on your local computer.

Regarding cloud services, the only difference between Windows XP & 7 compared to Windows 8 and later is that when using a Microsoft Account to sign in, the OneDrive storage, Mail and XBox apps work out-of-the-box and if you want to you can start installing software from the Windows Store. You can start backing up your files to OneDrive, get your emails and use your XBox games, music and videos without needing separately sign in to those services. That's it, that's the extent of the cloud in Windows 8 and later. By the way, of course it's totally up to you to decide if you want these services, you don't have to run OneDrive, Mail or XBox apps if you don't want to.

Those users who don't like the idea don't have to use any of these services. The same desktop software that they had installed on Seven can be installed in Eight and Ten and it can be used exactly as in Seven.

The absolutely only way not to use cloud services is never to connect to Internet. How fun or practical would that be?

 Local Account in Windows 8 and later

Since version 8 the Windows operating system is designed and meant to be used with a Microsoft Account. It is the default, the way it should be. It is of course natural that this, signing in with an existing MS Account or offering the option to create a new one are the ones which are preferred and shown as default.

However, Microsoft has made it very clear they do not force users to use an email account to sign in to Windows and given a quite an easy way to get around this and sign in with a local account. In my personal (and naturally quite subjective) opinion all these complaints about how difficult it is to sign in with a local account are ungrounded and invalid. Of course the selection is not there on the first dialog after the installation with 128 point bold and cursive font in blinking background. No, Windows is meant to be used with an MS Account.

But the option is there, easy to find and use. It is also well documented. Please forgive me to putting it this way but really, if a user do not bother to find out about this option and still is unable to find it, maybe this user really shouldn't use Windows at all due lacking capacity.

As the possibility to use a local account has remained about the same and can be done about as easy as it was in Windows 8, I have been really surprised to see and hear these complaints. Not a single post has been about "How nice that Microsoft continues supporting the non email based sign in in Windows 10". Why? This is also one of those things where the reason to a complaint has to be made up. I can almost see it when I close my eyes, a "Windows Sucks" geek sitting in front of his PC, thinking about what he should post now to show how much he hates it:

"Can't complain about Microsoft forcing me to use a Microsoft Account because they still allow using a local account, so let's see if I can complain about something else. Oh yeah, seems that I need two extra mouse clicks for a local account, that's a good one, I'll start complaining about that".

 My recommendations

If you don't like whisky, drink beer. If you don't want to drive a Mazda, get a VW. If you don't like your spouse, get a divorce. If you hate spinach, don't eat it. If you don't like Windows 10, don't install it.

Kari

 

[DavidE]

Next will be the VBox install to see if the VM there will be able to connect online since something seems to be blocking the generic network adapter that needs to be worked out and could well be the av/firewall program at work.

In VMware machine settings you could try setting the Network Adapter to Bridged and see if that makes a difference.

For whatever reason changing this setting from the default NAT to Bridged makes a difference for me ... performance and reliability is much better ...

It's quick and easy change you could test first, before messing with av/firewall settings.

 

[ThrashZone]

Good point these services work perfectly well "cloud" if treated as a website and often work better with fewer issues as websites to go to and do what you want and when/ Manually upload ....

This website as you eloquently refer to does not have a sync option possibly John will someday

 

[Kari]

Sync is not what makes cloud, although this website kind of have it; let's say you change the skin or upload a new avatar, they are "synced" and the new skin and avatar shown whatever browser on whatever PC you use to check these forums. If the data were stored only locally instead of the cloud, you'd have to do the changes separately on each PC.

By the definition the cloud includes anything where the centrally stored data is retrieved over the network to be used / shown / edited / run on your local computer.