3rd party firewall drivers conflicts

[nikonmama]

Hello. I have a thread posted in the crashes and debugging forum, but thought this forum might also be appropriate.

I am using a new dell computer with windows 7 64bit. I have had it about 10 days. Everything is running very smoothly except for trying install a firewall. The 2nd day I had it I tried installing a 3rd party firewall and the installation went fine and told me to restart the machine. When I did it started shutting down windows and then starting it back up....then all of a sudden a BSOD flashed and I was taken to the screen with options to either start in safe mode or start normally. I tried to start normally but the same thing happened so I booted in safe mode and did a system restore and then they computer booted up normally. I thought this was a fluke so I tried a different firewall and the same thing happened. I have since tried 3 different firewalls and this happens every time.

The first part of the BSOD when it occurs says this DRIVER_IRQL_NOT_LESS_OR_EQUAL
stop:0x000000D1

I have tried to zip up the minidump folder but even though it is set to save minidump files the folder remains empty and won't let me zip.

From what I have been reading I think I am having some kind of conflict with the 3rd party kernel drivers these firewalls are trying to install. Why I am having this problem.....I do not know....nor do I know how to fix it. Of course I could be totally wrong.

I have successfully been using windows 7 firewall control plus, which does not install any 3rd party kernel drivers, without any problems. So, I guess I will stick with that unless I can figure out why I am having conflicts with the 3rd party kernel drivers and how to resolve those problems.

 

[nikonmama]

Does anyone have any ideas on how to solve this issue? Thanks to anyone who replies.

 

[H2SO4]

Does anyone have any ideas on how to solve this issue? Thanks to anyone who replies.

It's highly unlikely that multiple 3rd-party firewall drivers would all happen to develop similar crash-inducing bugs at the same time. My guess is that there's something else that's fundamentally wrong on your machine, though minidumps may not be enough to find it through debugging.

It's worth a shot though. I understand you're having some difficulties attaching the minidumps, though I'm not clear on the exact reasons. Here's one way to do it:

http://www.sevenforums.com/crash-lockup-debug-how/34900-1-novice-how-ask-help-bsod-problem.html

As a suggestion, it might be better to continue this discussion in your original thread, simply as a courtesy to the others who've been helping.

 

[nikonmama]

Does anyone have any ideas on how to solve this issue? Thanks to anyone who replies.

It's highly unlikely that multiple 3rd-party firewall drivers would all happen to develop similar crash-inducing bugs at the same time. My guess is that there's something else that's fundamentally wrong on your machine, though minidumps may not be enough to find it through debugging.

It's worth a shot though. I understand you're having some difficulties attaching the minidumps, though I'm not clear on the exact reasons. Here's one way to do it:

http://www.sevenforums.com/crash-lockup-debug-how/34900-1-novice-how-ask-help-bsod-problem.html

As a suggestion, it might be better to continue this discussion in your original thread, simply as a courtesy to the others who've been helping.

I started a new thread b/c I stopped getting any replies despite several updates. I also thought I might get more support on this forum b/c much of the technical support I have received indicates a driver conflict.

I know how to attach a minidump. I am not having problems with that. the problem is that the file is empty. When I go to zip it it says that it cannot be zipped b/c it is empty.

I am not having any other issue at all with this machine. I debated taking it to best buy to have them look at it and potentially exchange it, but I decided against that. So, I am hoping this is just a driver problem and not something major. Other than being unable to install a firewall I have had no issues or crashes whatsoever and all checks are turning up no problems on this machine.

If starting a new thread was a mistake than a mod can just delete this.

 

[H2SO4]

I know how to attach a minidump. I am not having problems with that. the problem is that the file is empty. When I go to zip it it says that it cannot be zipped b/c it is empty.

Are the minidump files themselves showing up as being 0 bytes in size when you examine the contents of \Windows\Minidump? If you open them in Notepad, just for laughs, are they actually empty?

If not, it's more likely that there's something wrong with the copy.

If starting a new thread was a mistake than a mod can just delete this.

"Mistake" sounds heavy. I just thought it might be best to continue on the same thread

I don't know whether I'll be able to help you, but the problem is interesting and that intrigues me, so I'd like to try.

 

[nikonmama]

Are the minidump files themselves showing up as being 0 bytes in size when you examine the contents of \Windows\Minidump? If you open them in Notepad, just for laughs, are they actually empty?

If not, it's more likely that there's something wrong with the copy.

when I go to c/windows/minidump.....it is empty. there is nothing to open. The entire folder's properties say's 0 files, 0 folders, 0 bytes.

I have tried searching for .dmp files and only 1 shows up for a video editing software plugin that wouldn't install.

 

[H2SO4]

when I go to c/windows/minidump.....it is empty. there is nothing to open. The entire folder's properties say's 0 files, 0 folders, 0 bytes.

I have tried searching for .dmp files and only 1 shows up for a video editing software plugin that wouldn't install.

No need to search. If they (minidumps) existed, they'd be right in that location. The fact that you're experiencing BSODs without minidumps means either:

a) [Unlikely] the crash itself occurs in such a way as to knock out the OS's ability to write to the disk at the crucial time

b) there isn't a sufficiently large pagefile on the boot partition.

What's your pagefile layout like? You'll need say 1GB+ worth of pagefile on the partition where \Windows lives for dumps to be generated.

 

[nikonmama]

What's your pagefile layout like? You'll need say 1GB+ worth of pagefile on the partition where \Windows lives for dumps to be generated.

You have officially gone over my head LOL. I have no idea what any of that means.

I don't know if this helps but when the bs crash happens it is as windows is starting back up when I prefer a restart to complete the firewall installation. The only way to get started back up is to go into safe mode, do a system restore to just before the fw installation and then everything is up and running normally again.

 

[H2SO4]

What's your pagefile layout like? You'll need say 1GB+ worth of pagefile on the partition where \Windows lives for dumps to be generated.

You have officially gone over my head LOL. I have no idea what any of that means.

Sorry. In order to generate memory dumps when a BSOD occurs, Windows needs a pagefile on the same partition as the one where the \Windows folder resides, and that pagefile needs to be 1GB in size or preferably even bigger.

Does your machine currently have a 1GB or bigger pagefile on the \Windows partition?

I don't know if this helps but when the bs crash happens it is as windows is starting back up when I prefer a restart to complete the firewall installation. The only way to get started back up is to go into safe mode, do a system restore to just before the fw installation and then everything is up and running normally again.

Thanks, but it doesn't really help, other than to suggest that the symptom is so severe that you don't get very far at all. The vast majority of BSODs require memory dumps for deterministic troubleshooting.

 

[nikonmama]

What's your pagefile layout like? You'll need say 1GB+ worth of pagefile on the partition where \Windows lives for dumps to be generated.

You have officially gone over my head LOL. I have no idea what any of that means.

Sorry. In order to generate memory dumps when a BSOD occurs, Windows needs a pagefile on the same partition as the one where the \Windows folder resides, and that pagefile needs to be 1GB in size or preferably even bigger.

Does your machine currently have a 1GB or bigger pagefile on the \Windows partition?

I am sorry, I still don't understand how to figure that out. Please excuse me, but I really have terribly limited technical knowledge of computers. I won't be around the new computer until later this afternoon but I will try to see if I can figure that out.

I don't know if this helps but when the bs crash happens it is as windows is starting back up when I prefer a restart to complete the firewall installation. The only way to get started back up is to go into safe mode, do a system restore to just before the fw installation and then everything is up and running normally again.

Thanks, but it doesn't really help, other than to suggest that the symptom is so severe that you don't get very far at all. The vast majority of BSODs require memory dumps for deterministic troubleshooting.

I wish I knew for sure if this problem is something that is going to cause problems later or is just limited to trying to install a firewall. I have been looking into this feverishly since I bought the computer and set it up on 11/1. I have talked to dell repeated times but they insist it is not a hardware problem and that is the only thing covered under the limited warranty. They insist it is some sort of software driver problem, but won't help unless I pay for software support. They said I either need software support from them or from Microsoft, but with both would have to pay and I just can't.

I still have until tomorrow if if I want to take the processor into best buy and have their techs look at to see if they can either resolve the issue or deem that it needs to be exchanged. I am just hesitant to do that b/c other than the firewall issue I have had no problems. And if I had never even tried to install a firewall in the first place I wouldn't have even had this problem.

I am sorry to vent. I am just really frustrated and can't decide if I should keep looking into getting this resolved or just let it go. I do appreciate your assistance!

 

[H2SO4]

I am sorry, I still don't understand how to figure that out. Please excuse me, but I really have terribly limited technical knowledge of computers.

Don't be so hard on yourself - I should be the one apologising

Anyway, it's OK, I went back to your other thread and dug up most of what I wanted in this instance from the info report you sent to usasma. Your machine currently has a 6GB pagefile on the C: drive, so unfortunately that's not the reason for the lack of memory dumps during crashes. Time to move on to the next troubleshooting approach...

I wish I knew for sure if this problem is something that is going to cause problems later or is just limited to trying to install a firewall.

Unfortunately, nobody can tell for sure until the true nature of the problem is understood.

I have been looking into this feverishly since I bought the computer and set it up on 11/1. I have talked to dell repeated times but they insist it is not a hardware problem and that is the only thing covered under the limited warranty. They insist it is some sort of software driver problem,

For what it's worth, I'm inclined to agree with them - there is no indication right now that this caused by a hardware defect.

but won't help unless I pay for software support. They said I either need software support from them or from Microsoft, but with both would have to pay and I just can't.

Without memory dumps, even MS would find it difficult to "help" you in any other way except to talk you through the reinstallation of Windows from scratch.

I still have until tomorrow if if I want to take the processor into best buy and have their techs look at to see if they can either resolve the issue or deem that it needs to be exchanged. I am just hesitant to do that b/c other than the firewall issue I have had no problems.

If they are willing to look at it for free, you may want to take them up on the offer. Who knows? They might even fix it

And if I had never even tried to install a firewall in the first place I wouldn't have even had this problem.

I'm confident it's not your fault. Problems of this nature are not caused by incorrect user selections or configuration.

I am sorry to vent. I am just really frustrated and can't decide if I should keep looking into getting this resolved or just let it go. I do appreciate your assistance!

Again, no need to be sorry

I know that this forum has the collective expertise to talk you through diagnosing the problem, but it may be complex and it will likely take time. For now, I'd recommend considering two courses of action:

1) Take it back to the shop if they're offering to look at it for free. At the very least, make sure they record in their customer service databases that your machine was brought in for investigation, in case it should later turn out that the hardware is defective after all.

2) Live with the in-built firewall. It's actually very good, though not necessarily as "pretty" as some of the others you've tried to install. If you should experience additional problems somewhere down the track, worry about it then.

 

[nikonmama]

I know that this forum has the collective expertise to talk you through diagnosing the problem, but it may be complex and it will likely take time. For now, I'd recommend considering two courses of action:

1) Take it back to the shop if they're offering to look at it for free. At the very least, make sure they record in their customer service databases that your machine was brought in for investigation, in case it should later turn out that the hardware is defective after all.

2) Live with the in-built firewall. It's actually very good, though not necessarily as "pretty" as some of the others you've tried to install. If you should experience additional problems somewhere down the track, worry about it then.

Thank you for all your input so far. Best buy will look at it but I will have to pay....$40 I think. Not as much as dealing with dell or Microsoft but I am not sure it is worth it.

I am sort of inclined to just stick with the built-in firewall as you suggested. that is what i have been using. i have been using windows 7 firewall control as an addition to it since it makes it easier for me to to control what programs have outbound access. It is working beautifully.

I just can't help this 3rd party firewall issue from nagging at me. I don't really care so much whether I have one running or not....I just sort of want to get to the bottom of why every single one I try to install results in the same crash.

 

[CharlieV]

Nikonmama,
Hello there, I'm an ex Dell employee and I can tell you off the top of my head that this is no hardware problem. Of course, you should be glad it's a software problem and not a hardware problem cause that would mean you got a bad machine from the get go. Anyways, if we look at it logically, you haven't had any problems til you installed the 3rd party firewalls. Then you got the exact BSODs that people get when there's some kind of driver conflict. You hit it right in the head! It's a driver conflict and most 3rd party firewalls have a conflict with windows 7. You'll see that when installing the firewall you probably get a message saying that the driver is not signed blah blah blah and then you click on it to keep going. Then you reboot and BAM! BSOD! There are some firewalls that say that they are compatible with windows 7 but really aren't yet. I've tried a couple but forgot the names of the ones I've tried Anyways when the BSODs happen, just go to safemode and uninstall it from there ok? Usually software that involves some kind of network operation have drivers that aren't compatible with win7 so always check on the specs of the software, try it out, and if it doesn't work just uninstall it from safe mode. Not much more to understand about this cause you practically understood it on your own...take care

 

[CharlieV]

By the way, if u'd like to contact me about any software problems, you can contact me at my email (don't know if I can post it on here but if you can't, go ahead and erase it or block it)

 

[CharlieV]

Oh and don't go spend 40 bucks on those services cause they're gonna tell you the same thing I just told you...the good thing about win7 is that you don't really need a firewall cause UAC (User Account Control) basically let's you know when a program is trying to access certain windows files (e.g. software installation).

 

[nikonmama]

CharlieV....THANK YOU SO MUCH...for explaining so well what I have been suspecting. That was sort of what I thought to begin with but I don't have a lot of technical knowledge so I took my problem to different forums and that was when I started getting all this input that sent me panicking! Finally I just decided to stop posting about this problem anymore b/c I didn't think I was getting good feedback. I am really glad to hear someone say exactly what I have been suspecting. For a few weeks now I have been using windows 7 firewall control to give me easier control over outbound access with the built in windows 7 firewall and so far so good. I may eventually try another 3rd party firewall once they have had time to get all the bugs worked out.......or I may not.

THANK YOU and if I ever have any other software problems I might email you!

 

[tiger168]

Does anyone have any ideas on how to solve this issue? Thanks to anyone who replies.

WHen I first had a clean install of the Windows 7, I added Norton Internet 2010, noissues there. ThenI add ZoneAlarm Interne, I got the BSOD. Go into the safe mode to remove the ZoneAlarm solve the problem.

Next, I added Malwarebyte's Anti-Malware, no issues. Then I added SPYBOT-Searchand Destroy, no issues.

Looks like nt an issue Windows 7 issue, but application conflict as multiple firewalls all trying to lock the same resources.

We all know none of the packages out there prevents everything. You have to use what you are comfortable with and knows how to control th parmeters.