Coffee shops look to oust 'laptop hobos'

[jimbo45]

Hi folks
All this stuff will probably be a moot point now 4G is being rolled out -- at least here in Europe -- the 4G service beats the cr@p out of the standard public 3G Wifi services -- and most phone contracts over here offer free Wi-Fi service (where available) . For instance in the UK some phone contracts offer BT's Wi-Fi service which has pretty good UK coverage while if you are a subscriber to things like Virgin or SKY you can also get access to their free Wifi services -- I think SKY's is called something like _CLOUD and it seems to be available almost anywhere I travel in the UK.

In France I think ORANGE has a pretty reliable national Wifi service too.

These services really make the reliance on Wifi outlets in stores etc a lot less necessary. (Note that these Wi-Fi services can be used with laptops and tablets as well as your phone and aren't riddled with commercials --that gets really annoying when I'm doing things --I HATE unsolicited commercials if I'm not WARNED that these are there to support the cost of the free service first ).

IMO if you want to "socialize" then I can't understand why one would go into an Internet café in the first place so I don't think that's the reason people go there for hours at a time without purchasing anything.

Anyway when you can get access to 4G --try it -- it's amazing.

Cheers
jimbo

 

[jimbo45]

I had a neighbor who noticed for weeks about a guy who parked in front of her bldg., day after day, to the point where she called the cops. They couldn't do much about someone parking legally on the street, but they promised to keep a look out while on patrol. After a couple days, they spotted him and questioned him. The cops told her that he was tapping the wi-fi of someone who hadn't secured their signal, and there was little they could do other than to warn him that he was spooking the residents.

So, she called me a couple of days later and asked me to come by to help her set up her new router. When the time came to set up the wi-fi section, I asked her what kind of passkey she wanted, she (inevitably) said she'd never had to set that up with her old router. Oddly enough, after setting this all up, and getting her laptop configured to connect to her new router, the guy stopped showing up, and several of her neighbors began to ask if they could use her wi-fi because they'd recently lost their connections.

:busted:

Your police are either lazy or ignorant. Unauthorized internet access is a Federal violation. Loitering is also illegal in most jurisdictions.

Hi there
While US Federal Law isn't my strong point (why should it be as I'm not a US resident) I think any competent Lawyer would run rings around "Unauthorized Internet Access". The only way this would get anywhere near any sort of Court (in decent civilized democratic countries) would be if a message appeared as soon as you logged on to the service saying something like "This is a private Computer system and only specifically authorized people are entitled to access it. If you are not one of these you are committing a violation so please log off now".

However it's probably a lot easier to just set up a decent passkey on your router than create a logon message. However if you do get Hackers on your system having this type of logon message would make prosecution a lot easier (assuming the hacker was in your jurisdiction).

Anyway glad problem seemed solved. !!!

Cheers
jimbo

 

[Lady Fitzgerald]

I had a neighbor who noticed for weeks about a guy who parked in front of her bldg., day after day, to the point where she called the cops. They couldn't do much about someone parking legally on the street, but they promised to keep a look out while on patrol. After a couple days, they spotted him and questioned him. The cops told her that he was tapping the wi-fi of someone who hadn't secured their signal, and there was little they could do other than to warn him that he was spooking the residents.

So, she called me a couple of days later and asked me to come by to help her set up her new router. When the time came to set up the wi-fi section, I asked her what kind of passkey she wanted, she (inevitably) said she'd never had to set that up with her old router. Oddly enough, after setting this all up, and getting her laptop configured to connect to her new router, the guy stopped showing up, and several of her neighbors began to ask if they could use her wi-fi because they'd recently lost their connections.

:busted:

Your police are either lazy or ignorant. Unauthorized internet access is a Federal violation. Loitering is also illegal in most jurisdictions.

Hi there
While US Federal Law isn't my strong point (why should it be as I'm not a US resident) I think any competent Lawyer would run rings around "Unauthorized Internet Access". The only way this would get anywhere near any sort of Court (in decent civilized democratic countries) would be if a message appeared as soon as you logged on to the service saying something like "This is a private Computer system and only specifically authorized people are entitled to access it. If you are not one of these you are committing a violation so please log off now".

However it's probably a lot easier to just set up a decent passkey on your router than create a logon message. However if you do get Hackers on your system having this type of logon message would make prosecution a lot easier (assuming the hacker was in your jurisdiction).

Anyway glad problem seemed solved. !!!

Cheers
jimbo

Any halfway competent DA would have no trouble making the charge stick and get a conviction. Every now and then, I see a news report about it happening. Plus there is the loitering charge; that one is even easier to make stick.

 

[jimbo45]

Your police are either lazy or ignorant. Unauthorized internet access is a Federal violation. Loitering is also illegal in most jurisdictions.

Hi there
While US Federal Law isn't my strong point (why should it be as I'm not a US resident) I think any competent Lawyer would run rings around "Unauthorized Internet Access". The only way this would get anywhere near any sort of Court (in decent civilized democratic countries) would be if a message appeared as soon as you logged on to the service saying something like "This is a private Computer system and only specifically authorized people are entitled to access it. If you are not one of these you are committing a violation so please log off now".

However it's probably a lot easier to just set up a decent passkey on your router than create a logon message. However if you do get Hackers on your system having this type of logon message would make prosecution a lot easier (assuming the hacker was in your jurisdiction).

Anyway glad problem seemed solved. !!!

Cheers
jimbo

Any halfway competent DA would have no trouble making the charge stick and get a conviction. Every now and then, I see a news report about it happening. Plus there is the loitering charge; that one is even easier to make stick.

Hi there
While not turning this into a "Lawyers Fest" I don't think your DA would have a snowballs chance in hell of winning on this one.

Just imagine if I were to use a laptop say in a coffee shop / restaurant on say St. Monica Boulevard in West Hollywood CA which is also a large residential neighbourhood as well as having loads of Bars etc where large numbers of people congregate and is one of LA's most popular tourist areas situated roughly half way between downtown LA and the great beaches of Santa Monica with Beverly Hills just a stones throw away and the very pleasant UCLA campus just nearby.

I switch on my computer and see a whole slew of Wifi networks available -- some of which say Unsecured. How in the world would I as an "Innocent Tourist" be expected to have ANY IDEA whatsoever of what is a FREE public Wifi service and what is private without a logon warning message on a private service. Some of the names assigned to the networks would also not offer ANY indication that they were private networks either.

Of course people should always secure their networks -- even FREE ones in public areas should have some sort of password / other credentials required before enabling logon access.

Maybe I should take up another career before I finally "hang up my boots" -- as a Lawyer in the US. !!!

Cheers
jimbo

 

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Hi there
While US Federal Law isn't my strong point (why should it be as I'm not a US resident) I think any competent Lawyer would run rings around "Unauthorized Internet Access". The only way this would get anywhere near any sort of Court (in decent civilized democratic countries) would be if a message appeared as soon as you logged on to the service saying something like "This is a private Computer system and only specifically authorized people are entitled to access it. If you are not one of these you are committing a violation so please log off now".

However it's probably a lot easier to just set up a decent passkey on your router than create a logon message. However if you do get Hackers on your system having this type of logon message would make prosecution a lot easier (assuming the hacker was in your jurisdiction).

Anyway glad problem seemed solved. !!!

Cheers
jimbo

Any halfway competent DA would have no trouble making the charge stick and get a conviction. Every now and then, I see a news report about it happening. Plus there is the loitering charge; that one is even easier to make stick.

Hi there
While not turning this into a "Lawyers Fest" I don't think your DA would have a snowballs chance in hell of winning on this one.

Just imagine if I were to use a laptop say in a coffee shop / restaurant on say St. Monica Boulevard in West Hollywood CA which is also a large residential neighbourhood as well as having loads of Bars etc where large numbers of people congregate and is one of LA's most popular tourist areas situated roughly half way between downtown LA and the great beaches of Santa Monica with Beverly Hills just a stones throw away and the very pleasant UCLA campus just nearby.

I switch on my computer and see a whole slew of Wifi networks available -- some of which say Unsecured. How in the world would I as an "Innocent Tourist" be expected to have ANY IDEA whatsoever of what is a FREE public Wifi service and what is private without a logon warning message on a private service. Some of the names assigned to the networks would also not offer ANY indication that they were private networks either.

Of course people should always secure their networks -- even FREE ones in public areas should have some sort of password / other credentials required before enabling logon access.

Maybe I should take up another career before I finally "hang up my boots" -- as a Lawyer in the US. !!!

Cheers
jimbo

Your scenario is completely different from the one PeaB4YouGo described of a guy parking for long periods over several days in a residential area for the purpose of stealing internet access. He even admitted it to the police. As I said, I've read of instances where people were convicted for stealing internet access. I even saw an episode of Cops where a guy was charged with loitering and stealing internet access from his car in a residential neighborhood. The police later were able to determine he had been doing something illegal on his computer (I don't remember what) and was using unsecured networks to try to hide his tracks.

Keep in mind laws vary from country to country.

 

[PeaB4YouGo]

I had a neighbor who noticed for weeks about a guy who parked in front of her bldg., day after day, to the point where she called the cops. They couldn't do much about someone parking legally on the street, but they promised to keep a look out while on patrol. After a couple days, they spotted him and questioned him. The cops told her that he was tapping the wi-fi of someone who hadn't secured their signal, and there was little they could do other than to warn him that he was spooking the residents.

So, she called me a couple of days later and asked me to come by to help her set up her new router. When the time came to set up the wi-fi section, I asked her what kind of passkey she wanted, she (inevitably) said she'd never had to set that up with her old router. Oddly enough, after setting this all up, and getting her laptop configured to connect to her new router, the guy stopped showing up, and several of her neighbors began to ask if they could use her wi-fi because they'd recently lost their connections.

:busted:

Your police are either lazy or ignorant. Unauthorized internet access is a Federal violation. Loitering is also illegal in most jurisdictions.

First, I'm not the legal expert or anything, but it is implied that if you haven't secured your wi-fi, you've authorized anyone who can receive the signal to use it as they may. The law may not look at it that way, but it should. It's like turning the volume up on your speaker phone and getting pissed when people eavesdrop on your conversation. Secondly, he was parked legally and sitting in his car. That's not loitering. At least, not in most towns/cities. I've sat in the car waiting for the wifey for more than an hour while she "shopped" and that's not "loitering", that's "loving patience". Just my opinion...

 

[MilesAhead]

Another thing that nettles about the homeless access is being lumped in with the "undesirables" and blamed for their transgressions. When court decisions caused some mental institutions to release patients onto the street, this added to the problem as those who may not be taking their medication act unruly along with those who are taking their "medication"(e.g. crack.) I don't drink booze, do drugs, smoke, or gamble, but when some other guy leaves big puddles on the floor from spashing himself for 20 minutes in the rest room, I get the dirty look just because I have no permanent address. I'm sure there's some similar thing going on with some of the WiFi squatters.

I'm not up on election laws. Can people without a permanent address vote? If not, then they'll become a scape gpat since politicians won't incur much cost(they're not gonna' vote for me anyway.)

Complex issue. Unfortunately the "solutions" will likely have large negative side-effects.

 

[Lady Fitzgerald]

I had a neighbor who noticed for weeks about a guy who parked in front of her bldg., day after day, to the point where she called the cops. They couldn't do much about someone parking legally on the street, but they promised to keep a look out while on patrol. After a couple days, they spotted him and questioned him. The cops told her that he was tapping the wi-fi of someone who hadn't secured their signal, and there was little they could do other than to warn him that he was spooking the residents.

So, she called me a couple of days later and asked me to come by to help her set up her new router. When the time came to set up the wi-fi section, I asked her what kind of passkey she wanted, she (inevitably) said she'd never had to set that up with her old router. Oddly enough, after setting this all up, and getting her laptop configured to connect to her new router, the guy stopped showing up, and several of her neighbors began to ask if they could use her wi-fi because they'd recently lost their connections.

:busted:

Your police are either lazy or ignorant. Unauthorized internet access is a Federal violation. Loitering is also illegal in most jurisdictions.

First, I'm not the legal expert or anything, but it is implied that if you haven't secured your wi-fi, you've authorized anyone who can receive the signal to use it as they may. The law may not look at it that way, but it should. It's like turning the volume up on your speaker phone and getting pissed when people eavesdrop on your conversation. Secondly, he was parked legally and sitting in his car. That's not loitering. At least, not in most towns/cities. I've sat in the car waiting for the wifey for more than an hour while she "shopped" and that's not "loitering", that's "loving patience". Just my opinion...

You are comparing apples and kumquats. Waiting for your wife is not considered loitering in most cases. Hanging round somewhere to commit a crime is. Read more here.

What should be law and what is law are two different things. Also, with your logic, accidentally leaving your car unlocked with the keys in the ignition gives someone the right to just take the car.

Several references here on stealing internet access. It's a somewhat gray area and enforcement is based on the seriousness of the situation. The fact the guy admitted what he was doing (and it wouldn't have been hard to prove it anyway unless he was smart enough to erase his tracks) should have made prosecution and conviction easy (unless he was doing illegal downloading, etc., he would probably get off with a slap on the wrist and a warning).

 

[bobafetthotmail]

It's very simple man. Deny any access to wall sockets. Battery technology will ensure usage won't go beyond a few hours.

On a tangent, some time ago a guy that said he was using 4 different free wifi (connecting from 4 different adapters mounted on DIY longish-range antennas and using a software from the developers of Connectify) and was boasting about how fast his torrenting/FTP download was going.

First, I'm not the legal expert or anything, but it is implied that if you haven't secured your wi-fi, you've authorized anyone who can receive the signal to use it as they may.

As a general rule of thumb, unless someone gave you explicit permission to use something, you are stealing it as far as law is concerned ("i was going to bring it back" is a common justification you can hear from low-life thieves, but they are jailed if caught).

Most developed countries do have some kind of law about this stuff, the point is that cops are rarely smart enough to actually understand it. I mean, most can't tell the difference between wardriving (mapping the wifi hotspots in an area, legal) from guys cracking and stealing wifi bandwith (not legal duh!).

The same goes for cellphone/GPS/Radio jamming. It's illegal but it's hard to get caught doing it as no police force has ever encountered the issue on any real scale so they are totally oblivious to what could be the cause and unprepared to track you down (which is actually a piece of cake if you have the right equipment).

 

[Layback Bear]

Back to the Coffee Shop.
Turn the Wifi off.
If the coffee, food and service doesn't give a good customer base the Coffee Shop has more problems than Wifi.

 

[sygnus21]

Back to the Coffee Shop.
Turn the Wifi off.
If the coffee, food and service doesn't give a good customer base the Coffee Shop has more problems than Wifi.

Right.

So... my Samsung GS3 is 4G, and I love it and all, but it ain't my 13.3 inch notebook. For that, that's where free Wi-Fi comes in handy when out and about.

 

[jimbo45]

Back to the Coffee Shop.
Turn the Wifi off.
If the coffee, food and service doesn't give a good customer base the Coffee Shop has more problems than Wifi.

Right.

So... my Samsung GS3 is 4G, and I love it and all, but it ain't my 13.3 inch notebook. For that, that's where free Wi-Fi comes in handy when out and about.

Hi there
Free Wifi doesn't only have to be in a coffee shop -- it's often now included with your Phone contract or TV / Cable / Fixed phone contracts too -- so there's no reason why you can't access the 4G Wi-Fi service via your laptop if your provider has a public Wifi service like the major providers here do.

For example in the UK SKY give you _CLOUD, BT give you BT-FON etc. These are available nearly everywhere. In France it's ORANGE and there are loads of other one's too.

Not sure how this stuff works in the US as this always seemed to be a bit of an area where unlike a lot of the advances in technology the US always seemed to be a little bit behind the curve on mobile communications - possibly due to the sheer size of the country and the fact that you have huge open spaces between very large and tightly populated cities.

Cheers
jimbo

 

[sygnus21]

Back to the Coffee Shop.
Turn the Wifi off.
If the coffee, food and service doesn't give a good customer base the Coffee Shop has more problems than Wifi.

Right.

So... my Samsung GS3 is 4G, and I love it and all, but it ain't my 13.3 inch notebook. For that, that's where free Wi-Fi comes in handy when out and about.

Hi there
Free Wifi doesn't only have to be in a coffee shop --it's often now included with your Phone contract or TV / Cable / Fixed phone contracts too -- so there's no reason why you can't access the 4G Wi-Fi service via your laptop if your provider has a public Wifi service like the major providers here do.

Well unfortunately Jimbo, not all areas are equal. Here in the US, the service is called Mobile Hotspot, and that's an additionally paid service. you can include it in you data plan, or you can add it your plan later.

There are some programs out there such as mHotspot (free & paid) which I'm currently using (I'm at my mom's place at the moment and she doesn't have internet) but these programs are slow and tends to drain your cell battery rather rapidly. A rather nasty prospect if you find yourself in an area with no AC outlets

But yes, I have a data plan. However, because I'm grandfathered in (been with my provider since 2001) I have an unlimited data plan which unfortunately does NOT include mobile hotspot. Didn't have a need for it at the time.

Now, if I want a mobile hotspot plan, I can get one, but at the cost of losing my unlimited data plan since my provider doesn't offer that anymore. With that, I'd have to get at minimum a limited 4gig data plan if I wanted mobile hotspot on my phone. That equates to larger phone bill. Now I'll be happy to get it, provided you're paying the bill

At any rate that's not that's not the point. The point is businesses providing free Wi-Fi as a courtesy service and some abusing the system to the point that these businesses are now thinking of pulling the plug.

Yes, there's always a way one could provide for himself.

 

[jimbo45]

Hi there
OK other places have different systems -- the mobile Wifi is pretty standard here with the sort of contracts that are offered now and finally for once the EU Commission has actually done something useful in its long, usually pointless and incredibly expensive existence by forcing mobile providers to CUT the cost of services - especially when roaming. However you have to remember that some entire countries are smaller than individual STATES in the USA though.

I would still maintain though it should be easy for a business to recognize who is and isn't a customer -- for instance I would provide say a small alcove for users who just want to use the Wifi service (I'd provide that as a service to the community) while reserving the Interior of the store for customers.

I'd have TWO different routers -- the exterior one would give the "Free Loaders" say 30 mins before logging them off while Customers would get access to the 2nd network for as long as they wanted. -- Can't be too difficult and the cost to the business is minimal and everybody benefits -- those who just want to check email etc and then go on their way while allowing customers the full convenience and facilities of the store. The first purchase would have a unique password / userid on their till receipt and could only be used until log off - that would stop "Cheating" by passing the receipt to a non purchaser. There are all sorts of easy solutions to the problem -- just needs a little bit of imagination -- while STILL providing a service for the community and keeping goodwill.

After all most Bars / Restaurants seem to have no difficulty in only allowing Patrons to use their restrooms. (WC's for non US readers).

Actually as far as the EU is concerned I'm really happy that Iceland has officially withdrawn its application for Membership -- the EEA agreements with the EU are in place and this is a MUCH better deal for a small island with only a few natural resources. For EU nationals and a few others you still don't need a VISA to visit -- the Schengen agreement is in place (No Visas required and no Border checks if coming from another state in the Schengen Agreement).

Cheers
jimbo

 

[Hisophonic]

I only ever go to coffee shops for a drink or just hanging about, i usually find the coffee shops wifi are either sign up to use or really slow so i don't bother most of the time

 

[Layback Bear]

If a coffee shop wants more business just make the best damn coffee in town.
I believe that their are millions that will sit with friends and enjoy the great coffee and conversation at the table with without poking some gadget to interrupt the conversation.
If one want to go online or make phone calls pay for it just like you would at home or your business. All this free wifi does is raise the price of a great cup of coffee and fill all the seats and tables up with Coffee Shop Hobo's.

 

[Lady Fitzgerald]

I got a chuckle a few weeks ago when I waltzed into my grocery store and saw a sign saying they have free Wi-Fi. They don't even have a coffee shop. My guess it was for smart phone toting shoppers comparing prices, etc.

 

[strollin]

... So... my Samsung GS3 is 4G, and I love it and all, but it ain't my 13.3 inch notebook. For that, that's where free Wi-Fi comes in handy when out and about.

Have you tried an app called FoxFi on your GS3? I use FoxFi which creates a wifi hotspot for me without using my carrier's hotspot feature (which is an additional paid feature with it's own data plan). With FoxFi, I can use my laptop to connect to my phone's 4G and utilize it's unlimited data plan.

Of course, using the hotspot feature on my phone does eat up the battery so I prefer to use it when I have an outlet to plug it in. I can also plug the phone into the laptop via USB to use the laptop's battery to extend the phone's battery but that decreases the laptop's run time.

 

[MilesAhead]

I got a chuckle a few weeks ago when I waltzed into my grocery store and saw a sign saying they have free Wi-Fi. They don't even have a coffee shop. My guess it was for smart phone toting shoppers comparing prices, etc.

Some of the stores have "shopping list" online apps or something. That may be the main reason.

 

[Lady Fitzgerald]

I got a chuckle a few weeks ago when I waltzed into my grocery store and saw a sign saying they have free Wi-Fi. They don't even have a coffee shop. My guess it was for smart phone toting shoppers comparing prices, etc.

Some of the stores have "shopping list" online apps or something. That may be the main reason.

Wouldn't surprise me. I'm too cheap to get a smart phone so I just don't worry about it.