computer turning off randomly

amoretam

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Hi there, ...
The other day I started a thread with this:

booting loop
When I push the power button the computer strangely turns the case lights on, the motherboard lights on, I think no fan spinning and no monitor sign at all. It stay like that like for 10 seconds the it turns off, stays off for about 7 seconds and turns on, and it goes like that for I dont know how long (I did not dare to leave it doing that for long) untill I go and power the PSU off in the back.
This is extremely weird. I once heard these mobo's used to do something like that in rev. 1.0. But I have more than 2 years with these mobo and never did it. Plus mine is rev. 1.3

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I fixed that taking the battery off for a minute, placeit again and set the bios to optimal settings.
No problem at all for about a 30 days or something.

Yesterday my computer turned off while I was using it, All I did was turning it on again.

After many hours on today it did it again, I tried turning it on again but the computer stayed on for about a second, then off.

I did the same thing with the battery and bios, but when I turned it on it did the looping stuff until finally the computer decided to beep for the bios...

What is this,? it is very randomly, .. I've been working on the computer for about 5 hours and no problem, but i am afraid it will do it again someday, maybe tomorrow, or in a week...who knows

Thanks a lot



 

My Computer

Computer type
PC/Desktop
Computer Manufacturer/Model Number
Custom Build
OS
Windows 7 x64bit Home Premium
CPU
Intel Core i5-2500K Quad-Core Processor 3.3 GHz 6 MB Cache
Motherboard
Intel Desktop Board Media Series LGA 1155 DDR 1333 Micro-ATX
Memory
8GB G.Skill DDR3 PC3-12800 1600MHz - F3-12800CL9D-8GBRL
Graphics Card(s)
Sandy Bridge
Sound Card
M-Audio Fast Track PRO - Avid digidesign 003 rack factory
Monitor(s) Displays
Acer X233H LCD monitor
Screen Resolution
1920x1080
Hard Drives
OS Drive: Silicon Power 256GB SSD 3D NAND A55 SLC Cache Performance Boost SATA III
PSU
Cooler Master eXtreme Power Plus 500w Power Supply
Other Info
This Computer was built from scratch
Hey,

I have no idea why it is doing this but you can try changing the BIOS battery, maybe it is dying.

Also did you count the beeps?

I did a google search and found GA-Z68X-UD3H-B3 2 second boot loop after system halt. Not exactly the same but similar. At least you can try the clear cmos technique described there.
 

My Computer

Computer type
PC/Desktop
Computer Manufacturer/Model Number
Custom Build
OS
Windows 7 Ultimate x64 SP1
CPU
AMD Phenom 2 1090T
Motherboard
Gigabyte GA-890FXA-UD5
Memory
2x8GB Kingston HyperX Fury Black 1600Mhz Unganged
Graphics Card(s)
MSI GTX 970 Gaming 4G
Sound Card
Realtek On-Board HD 7.1 Audio / Logitech G35
Monitor(s) Displays
3xAcer GD245HQ
Screen Resolution
1920x1080
Hard Drives
Samsung 850 Pro 512GB SSD - OS /
WD Caviar Black SATA 3 - 1 TBx2 - Dynamic RAID 0 /
WD Caviar Green SATA 2 - 640GBx2 - Dynamic RAID 0 /
WD Caviar Green SATA 2 - 640GB - Internal Backup /
Seagate Barracude SATA 3 - 3TB - External Backup/ Sync
PSU
HighPower 1000W
Case
Cooler Master HAF 932
Cooling
Noctua NH-D14
Keyboard
Logitech G19
Mouse
Logitech G500
Internet Speed
100/4 Mbit Cable (100GB quota)
Antivirus
ZoneAlarm Extreme Security / MBAM Pro / MBAE Free / SAS Free
Browser
IE 11 - Firefox - Chrome
Other Info
Logitech F710/ G27/ G940/ Z5500 // TrackIR 5 // Nvidia 3D Surround Vision
i think you having problem in SMPS box should be chekc that current is flow properly in SMPS and FAN is working or not
 

My Computer

Computer type
PC/Desktop
OS
Windows 7 32bit
i think you having problem in SMPS box should be chekc that current is flow properly in SMPS and FAN is working or not

you mean the power supply?
 
Last edited:

My Computer

Computer type
PC/Desktop
Computer Manufacturer/Model Number
Custom Build
OS
Windows 7 x64bit Home Premium
CPU
Intel Core i5-2500K Quad-Core Processor 3.3 GHz 6 MB Cache
Motherboard
Intel Desktop Board Media Series LGA 1155 DDR 1333 Micro-ATX
Memory
8GB G.Skill DDR3 PC3-12800 1600MHz - F3-12800CL9D-8GBRL
Graphics Card(s)
Sandy Bridge
Sound Card
M-Audio Fast Track PRO - Avid digidesign 003 rack factory
Monitor(s) Displays
Acer X233H LCD monitor
Screen Resolution
1920x1080
Hard Drives
OS Drive: Silicon Power 256GB SSD 3D NAND A55 SLC Cache Performance Boost SATA III
PSU
Cooler Master eXtreme Power Plus 500w Power Supply
Other Info
This Computer was built from scratch
Hello. It happened again today.. damn it... please help... do you think that changing the battery should avoid the computer from turning off??
 

My Computer

Computer type
PC/Desktop
Computer Manufacturer/Model Number
Custom Build
OS
Windows 7 x64bit Home Premium
CPU
Intel Core i5-2500K Quad-Core Processor 3.3 GHz 6 MB Cache
Motherboard
Intel Desktop Board Media Series LGA 1155 DDR 1333 Micro-ATX
Memory
8GB G.Skill DDR3 PC3-12800 1600MHz - F3-12800CL9D-8GBRL
Graphics Card(s)
Sandy Bridge
Sound Card
M-Audio Fast Track PRO - Avid digidesign 003 rack factory
Monitor(s) Displays
Acer X233H LCD monitor
Screen Resolution
1920x1080
Hard Drives
OS Drive: Silicon Power 256GB SSD 3D NAND A55 SLC Cache Performance Boost SATA III
PSU
Cooler Master eXtreme Power Plus 500w Power Supply
Other Info
This Computer was built from scratch
Nobody can help?
 

My Computer

Computer type
PC/Desktop
Computer Manufacturer/Model Number
Custom Build
OS
Windows 7 x64bit Home Premium
CPU
Intel Core i5-2500K Quad-Core Processor 3.3 GHz 6 MB Cache
Motherboard
Intel Desktop Board Media Series LGA 1155 DDR 1333 Micro-ATX
Memory
8GB G.Skill DDR3 PC3-12800 1600MHz - F3-12800CL9D-8GBRL
Graphics Card(s)
Sandy Bridge
Sound Card
M-Audio Fast Track PRO - Avid digidesign 003 rack factory
Monitor(s) Displays
Acer X233H LCD monitor
Screen Resolution
1920x1080
Hard Drives
OS Drive: Silicon Power 256GB SSD 3D NAND A55 SLC Cache Performance Boost SATA III
PSU
Cooler Master eXtreme Power Plus 500w Power Supply
Other Info
This Computer was built from scratch
My old PC had similar issue, i flashed the bios with the latest version and it worked.

careful though, read instructions carefully before doing that!!
 

My Computer

Computer type
PC/Desktop
Computer Manufacturer/Model Number
custom
OS
Windows 7 Ultimate x64
CPU
i7 4790k
Motherboard
h97
Memory
8gb kingston
Hard Drives
ssd Hyper x 3k
Antivirus
avast
Browser
chrome
Since I am not receiving any more replies. I guess I am gonna have to experiment with flashing the Bios....hope everything goes well.. thanks
 

My Computer

Computer type
PC/Desktop
Computer Manufacturer/Model Number
Custom Build
OS
Windows 7 x64bit Home Premium
CPU
Intel Core i5-2500K Quad-Core Processor 3.3 GHz 6 MB Cache
Motherboard
Intel Desktop Board Media Series LGA 1155 DDR 1333 Micro-ATX
Memory
8GB G.Skill DDR3 PC3-12800 1600MHz - F3-12800CL9D-8GBRL
Graphics Card(s)
Sandy Bridge
Sound Card
M-Audio Fast Track PRO - Avid digidesign 003 rack factory
Monitor(s) Displays
Acer X233H LCD monitor
Screen Resolution
1920x1080
Hard Drives
OS Drive: Silicon Power 256GB SSD 3D NAND A55 SLC Cache Performance Boost SATA III
PSU
Cooler Master eXtreme Power Plus 500w Power Supply
Other Info
This Computer was built from scratch
I had a similar situation about 3 months ago with my desktop
which has a AMD FX-4100, 4 GB RAM and Windows 8.1 Pro.

It turned out that it wasn't getting enough power supply.

My PC would stay powered on for about a few minutes then suddenly it would restart / shutdown.
Check if the same is with you
 

My Computer

Computer type
PC/Desktop
Computer Manufacturer/Model Number
Assembled
OS
Microsoft Windows 10 Pro (x64)
CPU
AMD FX-4100
Motherboard
Gigabyte GA-78LMT-S2 R2
Memory
8 GigaBytes
Graphics Card(s)
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 750 Ti
Sound Card
Realtek
Monitor(s) Displays
Acer
Screen Resolution
1366 x 768
Hard Drives
WDC WD5000AAKX-001CA0 (500 GB)
Seagate ST1000LM (1 TB)
WD Elements 2.5" External (1 TB)
Seagate Expansion External (3TB)
PSU
Corsair VS550
Case
Normal
Cooling
Default
Keyboard
Normal
Mouse
Normal
Internet Speed
50 Mbps
Antivirus
Windows Security
Browser
Google Chome, Mozilla Firefox, Opera
hello people, I am very worried,
I changed Bios battery but still motherboard is behaving strange.
It turns off randomly, but now it does not even boots, it turns on and then off..

I did what Gokay suggested with the Link, the same as described, I could boot, everything was fine..
But then I shut down, minutes after I turned it on again, ... and then it turned off....

I have Bios version F12 (I updated it once)... I checked and there is a new beta Bios version..
I dont know if I should proceed with the reflashing because it says it is very risky.

Also the computer wil not boot into the Bios, ... so I dont know..

Plase help
 

My Computer

Computer type
PC/Desktop
Computer Manufacturer/Model Number
Custom Build
OS
Windows 7 x64bit Home Premium
CPU
Intel Core i5-2500K Quad-Core Processor 3.3 GHz 6 MB Cache
Motherboard
Intel Desktop Board Media Series LGA 1155 DDR 1333 Micro-ATX
Memory
8GB G.Skill DDR3 PC3-12800 1600MHz - F3-12800CL9D-8GBRL
Graphics Card(s)
Sandy Bridge
Sound Card
M-Audio Fast Track PRO - Avid digidesign 003 rack factory
Monitor(s) Displays
Acer X233H LCD monitor
Screen Resolution
1920x1080
Hard Drives
OS Drive: Silicon Power 256GB SSD 3D NAND A55 SLC Cache Performance Boost SATA III
PSU
Cooler Master eXtreme Power Plus 500w Power Supply
Other Info
This Computer was built from scratch
I had a similar situation about 3 months ago with my desktop
which has a AMD FX-4100, 4 GB RAM and Windows 8.1 Pro.

It turned out that it wasn't getting enough power supply.

My PC would stay powered on for about a few minutes then suddenly it would restart / shutdown.
Check if the same is with you

How do I check that.....I have like 3 years being powered by the same Psu ..

Thanks
 

My Computer

Computer type
PC/Desktop
Computer Manufacturer/Model Number
Custom Build
OS
Windows 7 x64bit Home Premium
CPU
Intel Core i5-2500K Quad-Core Processor 3.3 GHz 6 MB Cache
Motherboard
Intel Desktop Board Media Series LGA 1155 DDR 1333 Micro-ATX
Memory
8GB G.Skill DDR3 PC3-12800 1600MHz - F3-12800CL9D-8GBRL
Graphics Card(s)
Sandy Bridge
Sound Card
M-Audio Fast Track PRO - Avid digidesign 003 rack factory
Monitor(s) Displays
Acer X233H LCD monitor
Screen Resolution
1920x1080
Hard Drives
OS Drive: Silicon Power 256GB SSD 3D NAND A55 SLC Cache Performance Boost SATA III
PSU
Cooler Master eXtreme Power Plus 500w Power Supply
Other Info
This Computer was built from scratch
Listen to mvthakar.

Very often these types of problems are due to a poor, underpowered, or failing power supply.
You can test this by borrowing another (larger) supply and trying it for a while. Or, you can disconnect all but the essential components to reduce the load.

Another common cause is poor grounding or short circuit. If you have a motherboard standoff in the wrong place, loose connectors, and sometimes either hair or dust in slots can do it.
You can break the build down, check everything, and put it all back together to see if that helps.
 

My Computer

Computer type
PC/Desktop
Computer Manufacturer/Model Number
Home Built - Jan 2013
OS
Windows 7 64 Bit Home Premium SP1
CPU
i7-3820
Motherboard
Asus P9X79-PRO - Bios 4608
Memory
GSkill F3-14900CL9Q - 16GB
Graphics Card(s)
EVGA GeForce GTX660 - Driver 352.86
Sound Card
On board Realtek ALC898
Monitor(s) Displays
Acer S271HL
Screen Resolution
1920 x 1080
Hard Drives
#1- Samsung 840 Pro Series
#2- Western Digital WD1002FAEX Sata3 Black
#3- Western Digital WD1002FAEX Sata3 Black
PSU
Corsair CMPSU-850TX-V2 - 850 watt (by Seasonic)
Case
Corsair Obsidian 550D
Cooling
Standard 3 120mm case fans, Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO
Keyboard
MS KC-0405
Mouse
Intellimouse 5-button
Internet Speed
56 Mbits/Sec (on a good day)
Antivirus
Avast & Malwarebytes
Browser
Firefox
Other Info
Asus DVD - DRW-24B1ST 24X
Hello,..

Yesterday I uninstalled the motherboard and its components and installed it into a new case,I cleaned parts and tested with minimun hardware and different locations for RAM sticks..
Nothing, same problem.
I turn the computer on but it turns off in about 20 seconds, sometimes it restarts itself, most of the time it will not.

Today I tested with a new power supply and same thing, ...

Please tell me that my motherboard is not damaged..!


Help

Thanks
 

My Computer

Computer type
PC/Desktop
Computer Manufacturer/Model Number
Custom Build
OS
Windows 7 x64bit Home Premium
CPU
Intel Core i5-2500K Quad-Core Processor 3.3 GHz 6 MB Cache
Motherboard
Intel Desktop Board Media Series LGA 1155 DDR 1333 Micro-ATX
Memory
8GB G.Skill DDR3 PC3-12800 1600MHz - F3-12800CL9D-8GBRL
Graphics Card(s)
Sandy Bridge
Sound Card
M-Audio Fast Track PRO - Avid digidesign 003 rack factory
Monitor(s) Displays
Acer X233H LCD monitor
Screen Resolution
1920x1080
Hard Drives
OS Drive: Silicon Power 256GB SSD 3D NAND A55 SLC Cache Performance Boost SATA III
PSU
Cooler Master eXtreme Power Plus 500w Power Supply
Other Info
This Computer was built from scratch
No idea about motherboard, all I can say at the moment is did you try the computer at a different location/ a different power plug?

When you say minimal hardware, did you remove the GPU and see if it will stay on too?

Do you have a PC speaker connected to motherboard? If not just buy one, it may help in diagnosing. Should be 1-2 USD and you can remove it later.
 

My Computer

Computer type
PC/Desktop
Computer Manufacturer/Model Number
Custom Build
OS
Windows 7 Ultimate x64 SP1
CPU
AMD Phenom 2 1090T
Motherboard
Gigabyte GA-890FXA-UD5
Memory
2x8GB Kingston HyperX Fury Black 1600Mhz Unganged
Graphics Card(s)
MSI GTX 970 Gaming 4G
Sound Card
Realtek On-Board HD 7.1 Audio / Logitech G35
Monitor(s) Displays
3xAcer GD245HQ
Screen Resolution
1920x1080
Hard Drives
Samsung 850 Pro 512GB SSD - OS /
WD Caviar Black SATA 3 - 1 TBx2 - Dynamic RAID 0 /
WD Caviar Green SATA 2 - 640GBx2 - Dynamic RAID 0 /
WD Caviar Green SATA 2 - 640GB - Internal Backup /
Seagate Barracude SATA 3 - 3TB - External Backup/ Sync
PSU
HighPower 1000W
Case
Cooler Master HAF 932
Cooling
Noctua NH-D14
Keyboard
Logitech G19
Mouse
Logitech G500
Internet Speed
100/4 Mbit Cable (100GB quota)
Antivirus
ZoneAlarm Extreme Security / MBAM Pro / MBAE Free / SAS Free
Browser
IE 11 - Firefox - Chrome
Other Info
Logitech F710/ G27/ G940/ Z5500 // TrackIR 5 // Nvidia 3D Surround Vision
Nice work so far. You have eliminated a few possibilities as causes.

Another test to try is to run the system with a bare minimum # of parts: Power Supply, Motherboard, CPU & Cooler. Disconnect and remove everything else.
Turn the motherboard on (you can just connect the two pins on the PWR header with a flat screwdriver to do so) and then wait and see if it shuts down on it's own.
(If you have a speaker connected to the motherboard as GoKay mentioned you would hear beeping - an error code that tells you there is no RAM detected. We know!)
(You will not be able to see anything on the monitor, and the PC will not boot, of course. That is not a problem for this test)

If the system stays on and runs for a minute or two (any time longer than the problem period) then shut down using the power supply switch then add 1 stick of RAM in the first RAM slot (usually A1) and test again. (You would get another beep error code now: No Video Card detected.)

Then shut down, install the video card, connect it to your monitor, and test again.

See if you can pinpoint which part, when connected, causes the symptom. You can continue the test, adding parts back to the system one at a time and testing between each, until you have reassembled the whole thing.

If the system shuts down by itself with just the Power Supply, Motherboard, CPU & Cooler attached, then you know it is a problem with one of those parts.
And you have eliminated the Power Supply already.....
 

My Computer

Computer type
PC/Desktop
Computer Manufacturer/Model Number
Home Built - Jan 2013
OS
Windows 7 64 Bit Home Premium SP1
CPU
i7-3820
Motherboard
Asus P9X79-PRO - Bios 4608
Memory
GSkill F3-14900CL9Q - 16GB
Graphics Card(s)
EVGA GeForce GTX660 - Driver 352.86
Sound Card
On board Realtek ALC898
Monitor(s) Displays
Acer S271HL
Screen Resolution
1920 x 1080
Hard Drives
#1- Samsung 840 Pro Series
#2- Western Digital WD1002FAEX Sata3 Black
#3- Western Digital WD1002FAEX Sata3 Black
PSU
Corsair CMPSU-850TX-V2 - 850 watt (by Seasonic)
Case
Corsair Obsidian 550D
Cooling
Standard 3 120mm case fans, Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO
Keyboard
MS KC-0405
Mouse
Intellimouse 5-button
Internet Speed
56 Mbits/Sec (on a good day)
Antivirus
Avast & Malwarebytes
Browser
Firefox
Other Info
Asus DVD - DRW-24B1ST 24X
Thank you people I will do of this soon.
If you look at me system specs, you will notice that I don't use a graphic card, I use sandy bridge.

I have a speaker that came with the case, I will install it and proceed.
Thanks for fast response.
 

My Computer

Computer type
PC/Desktop
Computer Manufacturer/Model Number
Custom Build
OS
Windows 7 x64bit Home Premium
CPU
Intel Core i5-2500K Quad-Core Processor 3.3 GHz 6 MB Cache
Motherboard
Intel Desktop Board Media Series LGA 1155 DDR 1333 Micro-ATX
Memory
8GB G.Skill DDR3 PC3-12800 1600MHz - F3-12800CL9D-8GBRL
Graphics Card(s)
Sandy Bridge
Sound Card
M-Audio Fast Track PRO - Avid digidesign 003 rack factory
Monitor(s) Displays
Acer X233H LCD monitor
Screen Resolution
1920x1080
Hard Drives
OS Drive: Silicon Power 256GB SSD 3D NAND A55 SLC Cache Performance Boost SATA III
PSU
Cooler Master eXtreme Power Plus 500w Power Supply
Other Info
This Computer was built from scratch
Ok people as TVeblen suggested, I disconnected all parts except cpu and motherboard and psu of course. The problem persists.
I cannot believe this! I also used another outlet when tested with another Psu.
I cant believe my mobo is damaged, I bought it in July 2012 and it was kept in pretty good conditions.
And I cannot seem to find it in internet anymore....

What do you think?

Thanks
 

My Computer

Computer type
PC/Desktop
Computer Manufacturer/Model Number
Custom Build
OS
Windows 7 x64bit Home Premium
CPU
Intel Core i5-2500K Quad-Core Processor 3.3 GHz 6 MB Cache
Motherboard
Intel Desktop Board Media Series LGA 1155 DDR 1333 Micro-ATX
Memory
8GB G.Skill DDR3 PC3-12800 1600MHz - F3-12800CL9D-8GBRL
Graphics Card(s)
Sandy Bridge
Sound Card
M-Audio Fast Track PRO - Avid digidesign 003 rack factory
Monitor(s) Displays
Acer X233H LCD monitor
Screen Resolution
1920x1080
Hard Drives
OS Drive: Silicon Power 256GB SSD 3D NAND A55 SLC Cache Performance Boost SATA III
PSU
Cooler Master eXtreme Power Plus 500w Power Supply
Other Info
This Computer was built from scratch
How about CPU cooling? The system is designed to shut down if the CPU exceeds max temperature.
Have you checked the temps reported in BIOS?
 

My Computer

Computer type
PC/Desktop
Computer Manufacturer/Model Number
Home Built - Jan 2013
OS
Windows 7 64 Bit Home Premium SP1
CPU
i7-3820
Motherboard
Asus P9X79-PRO - Bios 4608
Memory
GSkill F3-14900CL9Q - 16GB
Graphics Card(s)
EVGA GeForce GTX660 - Driver 352.86
Sound Card
On board Realtek ALC898
Monitor(s) Displays
Acer S271HL
Screen Resolution
1920 x 1080
Hard Drives
#1- Samsung 840 Pro Series
#2- Western Digital WD1002FAEX Sata3 Black
#3- Western Digital WD1002FAEX Sata3 Black
PSU
Corsair CMPSU-850TX-V2 - 850 watt (by Seasonic)
Case
Corsair Obsidian 550D
Cooling
Standard 3 120mm case fans, Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO
Keyboard
MS KC-0405
Mouse
Intellimouse 5-button
Internet Speed
56 Mbits/Sec (on a good day)
Antivirus
Avast & Malwarebytes
Browser
Firefox
Other Info
Asus DVD - DRW-24B1ST 24X
How about CPU cooling? The system is designed to shut down if the CPU exceeds max temperature.
Have you checked the temps reported in BIOS?
I dont have acess to the BIOS..
Plus the cpu is cold on first boot
 

My Computer

Computer type
PC/Desktop
Computer Manufacturer/Model Number
Custom Build
OS
Windows 7 x64bit Home Premium
CPU
Intel Core i5-2500K Quad-Core Processor 3.3 GHz 6 MB Cache
Motherboard
Intel Desktop Board Media Series LGA 1155 DDR 1333 Micro-ATX
Memory
8GB G.Skill DDR3 PC3-12800 1600MHz - F3-12800CL9D-8GBRL
Graphics Card(s)
Sandy Bridge
Sound Card
M-Audio Fast Track PRO - Avid digidesign 003 rack factory
Monitor(s) Displays
Acer X233H LCD monitor
Screen Resolution
1920x1080
Hard Drives
OS Drive: Silicon Power 256GB SSD 3D NAND A55 SLC Cache Performance Boost SATA III
PSU
Cooler Master eXtreme Power Plus 500w Power Supply
Other Info
This Computer was built from scratch
Hello
 

My Computer

Computer type
PC/Desktop
Computer Manufacturer/Model Number
Custom Build
OS
Windows 7 x64bit Home Premium
CPU
Intel Core i5-2500K Quad-Core Processor 3.3 GHz 6 MB Cache
Motherboard
Intel Desktop Board Media Series LGA 1155 DDR 1333 Micro-ATX
Memory
8GB G.Skill DDR3 PC3-12800 1600MHz - F3-12800CL9D-8GBRL
Graphics Card(s)
Sandy Bridge
Sound Card
M-Audio Fast Track PRO - Avid digidesign 003 rack factory
Monitor(s) Displays
Acer X233H LCD monitor
Screen Resolution
1920x1080
Hard Drives
OS Drive: Silicon Power 256GB SSD 3D NAND A55 SLC Cache Performance Boost SATA III
PSU
Cooler Master eXtreme Power Plus 500w Power Supply
Other Info
This Computer was built from scratch
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