Concerns With Windows Backup Tool

[Andy 01]

Could do with some pointers on this please.
W7 Pro, backup facility.

I was allowing it to do a scheduled backup to a NAS, but it was taking to long to do the backup, so I put another drive in the case so it could back up to that.
This drive has nothing else on it, its just for the backup.
The C drive in the PC is 1 TB, and the backup drive is also 1 TB.

Now, I told windows to only keep the latest version of backup, so it should keep a bit of space free.
My C drive has approximately 350 gig used.
Following my second scheduled backup, the D drive now shows 800 gig used !!

How can it be taking 350 gig and turning it into 800 gig ??
My worry is if I get up to say 500 gig on C, a 1 TB drive would no longer be large enough to back it up !!

Any thoughts please.

 

[whs]

How many images do you have on your drive now - my guess would be at lest 2. With proper compression, the images should be only about 50% of the used space on C (about 180GBs in your case) - that is at least what I get with Macrium.

 

[Andy 01]

Thats part of my confusion
Only appear to have one image !

 

[whs]

This is indeed bizarre. I am not really an expert with the small details of Windows imaging since I use Macrium and Norton Ghost. I have therefore asked another member who is real knowledgeable with Win7 imaging to have a look at your problem.

 

[mjf]

In the mean time.
Windows backup uses 2 separate backup mechanisms which by default can run together. These are folder/file backups (uses hidden .zip files) and images of whole partitions (uses hidden .vhd files).
In your case out 350GB, 300GB may be personal files and folders and if these are being backed up they will appear as a separate entry like "your PC name" in addition to an image [WindowsImageBackup].

 

[karlsnooks]

Thats part of my confusion
Only appear to have one image !

Ok here we go.

Connect your backup drive.

Using Wndows Explorer, rt-click on the icon for the drive. choose open.

Here's a snip of what my backup drive shows.


Now select the folder with the name of your computer and choose Open

Rt-clk on the folder containing backups and choose Open

You will see several backups listed.

My next objective here is to indicate to you the Win 7 backup is incremental. I will show you you, via properties, the size of the first backup and then I will repeat the same sequence using the latest backup.
You will see there is a considerable size difference.
What you will do is rt-clk on a folder, and choose the properties item.
Here are the clips of my first and last.



That demonstrates the vast difference in the size of the backup of the folders and files on your computer.

Now we are going to look at the size of the image backup, a VHD file.

Using the Win explorer back arrow go back to that original display of folders on your backup drive. You will see a folder named WindowsImageBackup. Rt-clk, choose open.


You are going to see a folder with your computer name. Rt-clk, Open


You are going to see a backup folder. Rt-clk, Open


You will see a list of files, most contain info that restore operation uses, but
you will see one VHD file per partition you included in the sytem backup.
Notice the size of the image file.


This should help calm you worries about a rampart disk space chewer.

For a very excellent explanation of Win 7 Backup and Restore, I recommend Brink's tutorial:
Backup Complete Computer - Create an Image Backup

You may want to look at another piece of his handiwork:
Backup User and System Files - Delete Backups - Windows 7 Forums

 

[Andy 01]

Thank you for such detailed responses.
I'm at work at present so will look into this tonight and report back.
Again, many thanks.

 

[karlsnooks]

Looking forward to hearing your questions.

 

[Andy 01]

Hmm, Still struggle with the maths

OK, with the folder with my logon name, it shows two sets. 26/08/2010 (294 gig)and 03/10/2010 (193 gig).
Why two when I selected the option to only keep the latest backup ??

I then have the windows image folder, at 311 gig.

My total C drive usage is 334 gig.

So, how I see this is windows actually stores two backups !
One complete drive image, and another with personal files and folders.
As the bulk of my C drive usage is personal files, I guess thats why the user name folders are so large.

But if my assumption is correct, why does it need two backup types, effectivly doubling the required space needed on the target backup drive.
Does it re-do the drive image, or once taken its just safely stored ??

If I'm correct, my original worry still stands. I installed a 1TB drive to allow backup of the 1TB C drive.
If my usage of the C drive gets to say 500 GIG, the 1 TB available on the backup drive will no longer be enough ??

Looking like I may be needing a third party application to handle the backups.

 

[karlsnooks]

Andy,
If you investigate those two backups, you will find the first has zipped up about every folder and file. The 2nd backup will only have zipped up the files and folders you add/changed since the 1st backup.

Evidently you have some rather large files.

Futhermore, you have you system, your programs AND all of your data in one partition, C:

What the Win 7 Backup and Restore does, if you just go with the defaults, is generate a system image backup (the VHD file) AND zips up all of your folders and files. This approach is very powerful and flexible.

To reduce the size of your backups, you can:
1. create a new partition and put all of your libraries there OR
2. choose the custom backup option and only backup the folders of your choice. The system image will still be generated, but you will probably have far fewer folders being zipped OR
3. Use an approach which I personally use (except when generating examples for people who want to understand why the backups take so much space).

Approach 3 is: ONLY make a system image backup. With a system image you can always recover any individual folders/files by mounting the VHD file.

Since I use a notebook and a netbook and like to have all of my folders and files with me and to have both the notebook and the netbook in sync, then I use SyncToy to backup and to synchronize the data folders and files.

Approach 3 then gives me an image file which I make once every blue moon and allows me to have a fast backup and sync of folders/files between the two computer. I run synctoy about once a week.

 

[Andy 01]

Thank you again for your time.

Option 3 seems the best idea.
My home network consists of 3 desktop's, 5 laptops, and a media player.
This is all served by 2 NAS drives.

I sort out the music, pictures, video and data folders on my C drive, then use Sync Toy to NAS 1, which is what the other pc's share.
I also Sync Toy to NAS 2, which I keep as a pure backup of my data.

So, in reality all I need Windows backup to do will be the system image.
Its just to save me having to install from scratch in the event of a drive failure or other such event.

I can see what your saying, its a comprehensive backup, but maybe more that what I actually need !

Thank you for taking the time to explain it so well.

 

[gregrocker]

Karl, I would rep you again if I could.

The other method Karl mentions is worth considering even across a network:

Place your User files on another drive which acts as a data vault separate from OS/Programs partition: http://www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/18629-user-folders-change-default-location.html

This allows the OS/Programs partition image to be more compact and less urgent to back up than the latest data set easily backed up separately from its own drive.

In case Win7 becomes irreparable, it can be reimaged to it's partition in minutes while the data is all in place and waiting.

 

[Andy 01]

Karl, I would rep you again if I could.

The other method Karl mentions is worth considering even across a network:

Place your User files on another drive which acts as a data vault separate from OS/Programs partition: http://www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/18629-user-folders-change-default-location.html

This allows the OS/Programs partition image to be more compact and less urgent to back up than the latest data set easily backed up separately from its own drive.

In case Win7 becomes irreparable, it can be reimaged to it's partition in minutes while the data is all in place and waiting.

Thats how I used to work on my previous XP system.
With the new system I started with just the one drive / partition, so got stuck into that.
When I added the second 1TB drive, I split it into two 500 GIG partitions to do exactly that, with one half for data and one half for backup.
But, the backup failed reporting not enough disc space !

I guess i could delete the partition again on the second drive, split in half, copy data over 1st, then run the backup now I understand whats going on.

Or, I need to add a partition to my C drive, without loosing data or OS in the process, which makes me a little jumpy

 

[mborner]

Windows 7 has what is called backup "periods" The first time you run a system settings and files backup, it will take a while because it's doing a "complete" backup. From then on, whenever you run backup, it will be incremental, meaning, it will only back up what has changed since the last backup. However, (Big caveat, here) Every once in a while, Windows 7 will do another "complete" backup. There's really no rhyme or reason to when this will happen but it's important to understand that each complete backup is called a backup "period". These backup periods are separate from backup "images" in that you can select to keep only the most recent backup image, not the most recent backup period. Your disk is getting full because of periods, not images.

 

[karlsnooks]

Actually, the periods are defined. I've forgotten the algorithm, simply because it so easy to leave it to Win 7. Everything gets done correctly.

 

[karlsnooks]

Or, I need to add a partition to my C drive, without loosing data or OS in the process, which makes me a little jumpy

In the long haul, repartitioning will be the ideal approach.

For your Win 7 files, your MS Office installation, everything in your program files and program data, you can't ever use 100 GB. My C is 50 GB with 23.5 GB free. And I've got several other MS packages loaded besides a pile of appps.

Wrapped up--you will need a very ultimate max of 100 GB. Here I'm allowing for all kinds of weird monstrous programs being installed.

If later you become interested in this option, let us know. The procedure is easy, using the right tools and the right knowledge. And, as a side line, Greg Rocker is a pro at this kind of operation.

 

[mjf]

Windows 7 has what is called backup "periods" The first time you run a system settings and files backup, it will take a while because it's doing a "complete" backup. From then on, whenever you run backup, it will be incremental, meaning, it will only back up what has changed since the last backup. However, (Big caveat, here) Every once in a while, Windows 7 will do another "complete" backup. There's really no rhyme or reason to when this will happen but it's important to understand that each complete backup is called a backup "period". These backup periods are separate from backup "images" in that you can select to keep only the most recent backup image, not the most recent backup period. Your disk is getting full because of periods, not images.

Yes as most people will see for themselves multiple backups (zips not vhd images) will eventually get made. Clearly the algorithm MS uses isn't a random number generator but it could be more transparent (off hand I don't know what it is) . Of course it's easy with "backup and restore" to go in and delete old backup data sets.
Well before you get to the size of the OPs personal files/folders you need in my opinion a different backup strategy (including images of course). I manage my photo image library separately. It may be that large data sets could be stored on their own partition and imaged regularly. I believe some imaging software will allow differential imaging. Also, images can be mounted and files extracted.

 

[karlsnooks]

You will find following interesting and informative:
Backup Complete Computer - Create an Image Backup
Backup User and System Files - Delete Backups - Windows 7 Forums