Linux is trying to kill me. Really.

[CommonTater]

Many of problems I find in using Linux is because I'm using "Windows" mindset, like "in windows, I need to do this, and that and that", it might work that way in Linux, it might not...

Without intending this to be personal... while I found your message to be quite interesting it failed to be informative. It's the mindset of linux to be like this... to talk like you know exactly what's going on --because you probably do-- but at the same time, to fail to impart any useful information.

Let me give you an example...

I have a GF-8400 GS graphics card in my main system.

1) Under windows... Goto Asus website, download driver, Click, and it's done.

2) Under Ubuntu for some reason the stock driver didn't install...

Attempt 1 : goto NVidia site, download driver... ok now what... Go to Ubuntu forum: "Need help installing NVidia drivers...". Answers range from "let package manager handle it" -- What's "package manager"? -- "How you should have downloaded the driver." -- "how do I use it" --- "read the man page" -- "What's a man page?" -- no further answers.

Attempt 2 : Go to NVidia forums... "Need help installing driver under Ubuntu"... "What's Ubuntu?"

Attempt 3 : Fo to Linux forum... Ask question... Got back a list of some 10 steps to follow... OK follow the steps, how hard can that be? Well after about half a dozen tries, still no Nvidia drivers...

Attempt 4: FORMAT C:
​

And this is how it always goes for me with Linux... The first try it was the video driver. Second try, it was the wireless not installing. Third try I couldn't get the sound to work. ... And the quality of support I got was attrocious.

At least amongst windows users you get pretty straight forward "Click this", "Try that" sort of instructions... Linux people on the other hand just never get around to answering the question.

​

​

 

[Prisoner]

Thanks for the enlightenment, zzz. It's encouraged me to continue after the roadblock I just hit...

Linux Mint runs slower than anything I've ever seen before. It makes me want to cry (figuratively)...
Text shows up about 2-3 seconds after I type it... Menus show up after around 10 seconds, Firefox takes a good minute to two to load... The thing I wonder is why this is so, because this system has a better processor and twice as much RAM. I've minimized all animations and effects to none, and still it's slow.

I Think I'll try gOS now.

 

[zzz2496]

Many of problems I find in using Linux is because I'm using "Windows" mindset, like "in windows, I need to do this, and that and that", it might work that way in Linux, it might not...

Without intending this to be personal... while I found your message to be quite interesting it failed to be informative. It's the mindset of linux to be like this... to talk like you know exactly what's going on --because you probably do-- but at the same time, to fail to impart any useful information.

Let me give you an example...

I have a GF-8400 GS graphics card in my main system.

1) Under windows... Goto Asus website, download driver, Click, and it's done.

2) Under Ubuntu for some reason the stock driver didn't install...

Attempt 1 : goto NVidia site, download driver... ok now what... Go to Ubuntu forum: "Need help installing NVidia drivers...". Answers range from "let package manager handle it" -- What's "package manager"? -- "How you should have downloaded the driver." -- "how do I use it" --- "read the man page" -- "What's a man page?" -- no further answers.

Attempt 2 : Go to NVidia forums... "Need help installing driver under Ubuntu"... "What's Ubuntu?"

Attempt 3 : Fo to Linux forum... Ask question... Got back a list of some 10 steps to follow... OK follow the steps, how hard can that be? Well after about half a dozen tries, still no Nvidia drivers...

Attempt 4: FORMAT C:
​

And this is how it always goes for me with Linux... The first try it was the video driver. Second try, it was the wireless not installing. Third try I couldn't get the sound to work. ... And the quality of support I got was attrocious.

At least amongst windows users you get pretty straight forward "Click this", "Try that" sort of instructions... Linux people on the other hand just never get around to answering the question.

I see, you need a real example, eh?

I'll "solve" your problem then...

1. Hard way: For NVIDIA driver, go to NVIDIA website, download the latest from it's website (Linux), get the binary blob. Once you done that, extract the package then run the installer script...

Note that many Linux distributions provide their own packages of the NVIDIA Linux Graphics Driver in the distribution's native package management format. This may interact better with the rest of your distribution's framework, and you may want to use this rather than NVIDIA's official package.
Also note that SuSE users should read the SuSE NVIDIA Installer HOWTO before downloading the driver.
Installation instructions: Once you have downloaded the driver, change to the directory containing the driver package and install the driver by running, as root, sh ./NVIDIA-Linux-x86-195.36.15-pkg1.run
One of the last installation steps will offer to update your X configuration file. Either accept that offer, edit your X configuration file manually so that the NVIDIA X driver will be used, or run nvidia-xconfig
See the README for more detailed instructions.

In OpenSuSE, to install things like drivers, you need to have Linux development tools (this is a prequisite requirement, if you "understand" the way Linux/Linux community works...), GCC, Kernel Source, etc. Once you done this step, it should compile the kernel module, install it automagically... All you need to do is (most of the time) is restart X, rarely you need to restart the computer...

2. Easy way: in OpenSuSE, open YaST, check/install nvidia rpm package... depending on the result, you might need to restart X, or worse, restart the computer...

The failure to understand the ways of Linux is your part, not the community's...

zzz2496

Edit: Even if everything fails, you can't "Format C:" in Linux, the right term for formatting your harddisk in Linux would be either /dev/hd[a/b/c/d/e/f..n][1/2/3/4/5/6/7..n] for IDE/old SATA interfaces, /dev/sd[a/b/c/d/e/f..n][1/2/3/4/5/6/7..n] for AHCI/SAS/SCSI interfaces... Even Windows's Disk Management doesn't say "C:" on partitions... It labels "C:" or "D:" after you format it, the correct designation in NT systems is "multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(2)\" kind format...

 

[tw33k]

I have an easy solution to the problem "Linux is trying to kill me"

Kill Linux first

 

[zzz2496]

For novice Linux users, it's better for you guys to use Large/Old distro before trying the new and shiny distro. Example of old distros: SuSE (OpenSuSE/SLES/SLED), Debian (Ubuntu's "parent"), Slackware and RedHat. They have A LOT of documentations, and 99.9% will cover you when in trouble... I personally use OpenSuSE for years, plenty of software support, documentation abound, easy to use Linux. I tried Ubuntu few months back, it's way different than OpenSuSE, Ubuntu is more of a "manual labor" distro, everything you change is manually done (change .conf here, save, restart daemon, change .conf there, restart daemon, etc). In OpenSuSE, all I need is open YaST and it will configure everything for me...

zzz2496

 

[CommonTater]

I see, you need a real example, eh?

That's always helpful.

The failure to understand the ways of Linux is your part, not the community's...

While you've just given me many times more information than I've seen before on this one problem the matter remains that expecting me to come to Linux with a pre-existing understanding of the intricacies of the software and the community entirely defeats the goal of offering support. If I knew what was going on I wouldn't have to ask the questions...

Effectively "the keys are in the trunk" if you are going to require us to have some level of pre-existing knowledge before asking questions... We ask questions because we don't know the answers.

 

[zzz2496]

I see, you need a real example, eh?

That's always helpful.

The failure to understand the ways of Linux is your part, not the community's...

While you've just given me many times more information than I've seen before on this one problem the matter remains that expecting me to come to Linux with a pre-existing understanding of the intricacies of the software and the community entirely defeats the goal of offering support. If I knew what was going on I wouldn't have to ask the questions...

Effectively "the keys are in the trunk" if you are going to require us to have some level of pre-existing knowledge before asking questions... We ask questions because we don't know the answers.

Ouch, I'm sorry if I offended you... The reality is, Linux isn't quite ready to be used as a "real desktop" OS used by a "regular" user. Even some of my colleagues which are seasoned Windows administrator (most of them have MCP for both Client and Server OS plus Microsoft network certification), Linux can be a bit daunting. Linux is still to "open", everyone can pitch in, if one doesn't like it, feel free to not use Linux, it's a stark contrast with Windows... since you paid for it, you are illegible to some kind of support, plus there's the 90%++ market that uses Windows, so the "mentality" will form... In Linux world, it's a "free for all" world, very different than Windows. More like "wild jungle" than a "suburban community", it's the "wild west" of computing... Everyone is on their own to survive.

There's a saying in Linux world "RTFM", it really mean something. "Manual" is not just the man pages, or some blog entries, sometimes it can span to hundreds of mailing list topics that's being discussed by the devs/users. It's a free world. The fact that you missed "How-to" guide from Nvidia proved my point. You expect the driver installer to be run like in Windows, by double clicking the file - then follow the onscreen wizard (my vague point). Yet in Linux, you do "click" the file, by running a command as "root", with the requirement of having developer tools installed. If you see it from a Linux user, your default installation most of the time doesn't install developer tools by default, and most of the time - you don't need it, since Linux will auto discover, install, and configure MANY devices by default. Installing a binary blob is not a "normal' routine, thus needing "special approach". If you look at that from a Windows user point of view, it's fricking troublesome (because you expect Linux to run like Windows)...

Some of the Linux community had their lesson(s) the hard way, some of them are reluctant to help a "helpless" user, those with less effort more [bad] mouthing (I don't mean you), thus what you receive in Ubuntu forums... Can't really blame them, some of them might spend days just to install that driver, only to curse in the end for not reading the instructions on the other tab on the download page...

zzz2496

 

[zzz2496]

Well, fundamentally speaking... Linux is not Windows. Windows NT does have some multi-user capability designed to it, but it's not a through and through multi-user OS. Linux/UNIX by design is meant to be used by MORE than one user by default. Many Windows user will find it to be very confusing, most of the time, useless... From a Linux/UNIX user perspective, using GUI with no restriction in administrative powers is a blessing in wolf disguise. By default, Linux USER land is BY FAR more secure (by design) than compared to UAC sandbox. If a program can only be run as root, it won't run as a regular user, period. In Windows Vista/7, that role is being done by UAC, it limits Windows application developers to do what Linux programs does since it's birth, silly if you ask me...

Linux's usage model is limited by it's fundamental design as a multi-user operating system. Windows on the other hand is a single user operating system that has multi-user environment feature surgically added in it's kernel. Both have inherited pluses and minuses. In the end, it's just "different". If you drive a motorcycle, you use your right hand to twist the throttle and and the same time control the front brake, left hand handles the clutch, right foot handles gear change, left foot handles rear brake, and both hands controls the handle bar, stabilizing the vehicle. You by that mind set can't force a motorcycle to ride like a car, right foot controls the accelerator, left foot clutch/brake, hands to the steering wheel with nothing to balance the vehicle. See what I mean? It's just different, need to face the reality and accept that it's different then learn the "ways of Linux".

zzz2496

 

[Dinesh]

Well, fundamentally speaking... Linux is not Windows. Windows NT does have some multi-user capability designed to it, but it's not a through and through multi-user OS. Linux/UNIX by design is meant to be used by MORE than one user by default. Many Windows user will find it to be very confusing, most of the time, useless... From a Linux/UNIX user perspective, using GUI with no restriction in administrative powers is a blessing in wolf disguise. By default, Linux USER land is BY FAR more secure (by design) than compared to UAC sandbox. If a program can only be run as root, it won't run as a regular user, period. In Windows Vista/7, that role is being done by UAC, it limits Windows application developers to do what Linux programs does since it's birth, silly if you ask me...

Linux's usage model is limited by it's fundamental design as a multi-user operating system. Windows on the other hand is a single user operating system that has multi-user environment feature surgically added in it's kernel. Both have inherited pluses and minuses. In the end, it's just "different". If you drive a motorcycle, you use your right hand to twist the throttle and and the same time control the front brake, left hand handles the clutch, right foot handles gear change, left foot handles rear brake, and both hands controls the handle bar, stabilizing the vehicle. You by that mind set can't force a motorcycle to ride like a car, right foot controls the accelerator, left foot clutch/brake, hands to the steering wheel with nothing to balance the vehicle. See what I mean? It's just different, need to face the reality and accept that it's different then learn the "ways of Linux".

zzz2496

 

[fseal]

So Linux is all about "Thinking Different?"

Look I'm a linux developer. And I'll say straight out, Linux is insanely user hostle. No user should ever need to have development tools installed. Period. It's allso commercial software development hostle.

Linux is a /personal/ developers OS and will never do anything in the mainstream user space as long as the current way of "Linux thinking" persists.

And maybe that's just fine! People shouldn't make Linux out to be anything other than what it is, and a mainstream desktop OS it's not, and frankly, never will be. There is WAY too much "Linux Thinking" in the way for that to happen in the next 10 years at least. That includes a lot of Linux people (people that get Linux "thinking") that say things that really are not true at all in some sort of hopeful dreamy defiance to reality. I meet far too many of those types as well. :/

 

[zzz2496]

So Linux is all about "Thinking Different?"

Look I'm a linux developer. And I'll say straight out, Linux is insanely user hostle. No user should ever need to have development tools installed. Period. It's allso commercial software development hostle.

Agreed on that, but for some VERY rare case (like installing NVIDIA binary blob driver), you'd need GCC and some kernel source files (IIRC, I installed it on my OpenSuSE 10.3 back then, to try the infamous Compiz)

Linux is a /personal/ developers OS and will never do anything in the mainstream user space as long as the current way of "Linux thinking" persists.

And maybe that's just fine! People shouldn't make Linux out to be anything other than what it is, and a mainstream desktop OS it's not, and frankly, never will be. There is WAY too much "Linux Thinking" in the way for that to happen in the next 10 years at least. That includes a lot of Linux people (people that get Linux "thinking") that say things that really are not true at all in some sort of hopeful dreamy defiance to reality. I meet far too many of those types as well. :/

Agreed yet again... For those who want to try Linux, must prepare for not so friendly "world". Linux "world" is an "idealist" world, and a harsh one at that.

zzz2496

Edit: As a desktop/mainstream OS, maybe Linux can't do much, but once you have a running Linux SERVER, that thing is nearly indestructible...

 

[CommonTater]

Ouch, I'm sorry if I offended you...

Not at all. You should maybe know my manner is very direct and if I'm going to talk that way, I'd better be ready to be spoken to in a similar manner. If we've gotten off on the wrong track let me reassure you there's no animosity on this end.

The reality is, Linux isn't quite ready to be used as a "real desktop" OS used by a "regular" user. Even some of my colleagues which are seasoned Windows administrator (most of them have MCP for both Client and Server OS plus Microsoft network certification), Linux can be a bit daunting. Linux is still to "open", everyone can pitch in, if one doesn't like it, feel free to not use Linux, it's a stark contrast with Windows... since you paid for it, you are illegible to some kind of support, plus there's the 90%++ market that uses Windows, so the "mentality" will form... In Linux world, it's a "free for all" world, very different than Windows. More like "wild jungle" than a "suburban community", it's the "wild west" of computing... Everyone is on their own to survive.

There's a saying in Linux world "RTFM", it really mean something. "Manual" is not just the man pages, or some blog entries, sometimes it can span to hundreds of mailing list topics that's being discussed by the devs/users. It's a free world. The fact that you missed "How-to" guide from Nvidia proved my point. You expect the driver installer to be run like in Windows, by double clicking the file - then follow the onscreen wizard (my vague point). Yet in Linux, you do "click" the file, by running a command as "root", with the requirement of having developer tools installed. If you see it from a Linux user, your default installation most of the time doesn't install developer tools by default, and most of the time - you don't need it, since Linux will auto discover, install, and configure MANY devices by default. Installing a binary blob is not a "normal' routine, thus needing "special approach". If you look at that from a Windows user point of view, it's fricking troublesome (because you expect Linux to run like Windows)...

Some of the Linux community had their lesson(s) the hard way, some of them are reluctant to help a "helpless" user, those with less effort more [bad] mouthing (I don't mean you), thus what you receive in Ubuntu forums... Can't really blame them, some of them might spend days just to install that driver, only to curse in the end for not reading the instructions on the other tab on the download page...

zzz2496

Your point is taken... I like the wild west analogy... However I don't believe I came to the Linux experience expecting it to be like windows... My first screen shot pretty much dispelled that notion. However, I do think it reasonable that when offering to help, people should actually help... really.

I do agree Linux is "not ready for prime time" although the curve seems to be leading it in that direction. As an old DOS instructor and a C language programmer, the only advice I can offer is the same as I offered to people starting out with DOS... Documentation, Documentation and more Documentation...

And yes, my friend, I certainly do know what RTFM referrs to

 

[CommonTater]

It's just different, need to face the reality and accept that it's different then learn the "ways of Linux".

Absolutely... but *nobody* ... not even you, is there on day 1.

Grasshopper, you must allow the journey if you wish to reach the destination.

 

[zzz2496]

It's just different, need to face the reality and accept that it's different then learn the "ways of Linux".

Absolutely... but *nobody* ... not even you, is there on day 1.

Grasshopper, you must allow the journey if you wish to reach the destination.

Ahahahahaa, agreed... I remembered the day I sat in front of RedHat Linux (I forgot the version), a Text based console, installed off 12 floppy disks (IIRC) and nothing is interesting at that time... By the time I understand the fundamental building blocks of Linux, I was already cursing at "cmd.exe" more than 3 curses/second

zzz2496

 

[Prisoner]

Well, that was a very interesting conversation to read through.

On a lighter topic... I finally got Mint working normally. gOS, in my -extreme novice- opinion, needs a lot of work...
The dock at the bottom of the screen uses a transparent image behind the icons to hide the program's window, but you can tell it's there by click-dragging from somewhere on the screen to the icons; the selection box just disappears...

Didn't see much a hard drive size difference between it an Mint, and even after updates (which fixed Mint's performance troubles), it still went slow. Wasn't working right with my graphics card. User menu was too small... but then again, it's for netbooks, not full desktops...

 

[geeve420]

I use Fedora 12 and I like it. The problem Linux has is first the support is awful, I have printed off about 25 pages of stuff just to get things running. The other issue and why I don't think it is viable for everyone, is that not all hardware is supported. It is the hardware makers not releasing the info for the driver writers. I would be off Windows completely if my Emu sound card was supported. It is not and probably never will be. With out home audio recording I really have no need for anything but windows. I have Fedora installed just to play around with it and see what has changed at each release.

 

[CyberZeus]

I had a dual boot with Vista x64 and Ubuntu 8. Why? Vista was too slow.
Now I have Windows 7, it's fast with the same hardware as Vista: no need for Linux.

Anyway, I was successful installing Nvidia drivers and getting SLI working. Difficult, I needed to read two guides on it, take the working parts from them and build my own guide on Nvidia and SLI.
If someone want that guide, I could post it.

CyberZeus

 

[TheSchaft]

I've looked at this thread, and the other one on Linux (shameless plug: http://www.sevenforums.com/chillout-room/74076-linux.html#post651390), and I'll reiterate what I've said before: My going-in position is if I cannot use a GUI to run EVERYTHING in the OS, it gets deleted. No more terminal or DOS - been there done that, got the t-shirt.

Ubuntu worked good, Linux Mint works great - a cross between XP and Windows 7 (old style menu + search bar and screenlets (read gadgets) for weather, machine info, etc.)

On the systems that I've tried it (32 bit laptop and 64 bit desktop) Linux Mint 8 has not given me any reason to toss it (so far). I have been able to play all the videos I have (thanks in part to Ubuntu Tweaks - Ubuntu Tweak - Let's rock with Ubuntu), convert my mail from Outlook to Thunderbird, even re-arrange the boot menu order via a small download.

Not ready for prime time? I'm not so sure. Granted, I don't play WoW, Wolfenstein, etc., but for day to day Office-type stuff, browsing, and e-mail it sure looks more and more like something that, as I've said before, Microsoft ought to be looking over their shoulder at.

Bottom line: I didn't have to tweak it any more than I've had to tweak Windows 7 to get it to look and feel like I want it, and all the tweaks were GUI based.

All that said, I'll be staying with Windows 7 because I believe that it is still the best out there (for now) and because I can't see Linus doing a Steve Ballmar monkey dance (try to get THAT image out of your head. )

Just my humble opinion.

 

[valtonray]

i have to say i like the theory of linux more than i actually like using it.

 

[loaba]

i have to say i like the theory of linux more than i actually like using it.

Nailed it, man. I feel exactly the same way. Linux is neat to install and play with, the potential seems endless. Then you run into the first hurdle (of many), and if you're not the type who likes a challenge, you'll quickly become discouraged.